Propylene Glycol Antifreeze for Welder Coolants

Hi,

This is my first post. My name is Mike Cole.

I have done some research on propylene glycol antifreeze for water cooled TIG torches and water cooled MIG guns. I have found 3 alternatives to Binzel-Abicor's ABI-CoolECO coolant and Esab's Thermal Dynamics 7-35809 Extra Cool which only contain 30% propylene glycol antifreeze which will only give freeze protection down to +10 Fahrenheit. Not good for those of you who do not want to heat their garage or welding shop just to keep the TIG welder warm. These alternativees will be for making or buying a 50/50 solution with distilled water that has a freezing point of about -28 Fahrenheit. Propylene glycol is the antifreeze that is used as a food and drug additive and where you do not have to report spills to the authorities. What I have in my car engine is Prestone Lowtox propylene glycol antifreeze. This is because i do not want a leak to harm people's pets let alone what happens when I drain and flush the system once every 5 years.

You cannot use automotive propylene glycol antifreeze such as Prestone Lowtox or Peak Sierra. These contain silicates that are intended to plug small leaks and is detrimental to nonautomotive water pumps.

The most practical is Dowfrost HD which is available in 1 gallon jugs and 5 gallon pails from a number of sources. Amazon's prices are such that 3 1 gallon bottles are about the same price as a 5 gallon pail so you might as well buy the pail so you get 2 gallons free. You will have to use a turkey baster that is dedicated to the purpose and rinsed out with distilled water. This product contains a rust inhibitor and a fluorescent yellow dye which makes leaks easy to find.

One issue is how much electricity a 50/50 propylene glycol/ distilled water solution will conduct. An engineering document I found on Dow's website gave me the data to figure out electrical conductivity. To find the document Google Dowfrost and mho which is the unit of electrical conductivity and is the reciprocal of the Ohm. The electrical conductivity of a 50% by weight ( which is only 1/2% different by 50/50 volume ) Dowfrost HD and distilled water is 2.06E-3 ( 0.00206 ) mho per centimeter. Some material sheets used the more modern name of a mho which is Siemen.

Store bought distilled water is about 6 to 8 megohm-cm ( 6 to 8 million Ohms-cm ) which is find. Save the empty jugs after you use them to fill humidifiers, etc. I use it to make buffered salt water for washing my nose 3.5 quarts in what used to be a Hawaiian Punch bottle. Is 2 such containers each month.

If we take the reciprocal of this figure ( dived 1 by this figure ) we get 485.4 Ohm-cm. We then find the internal cross section of 3/8 inch inside diameter tubing which is a little bit bigger than 9 mm ID tubing. Multiply 0.375 inches by 2.54 cm per inch. Square that ( multiply it by itself ), divide by 4, then multiply by Pi ( 3.141592654 in my calculator ). This will be the cross section in square centimeters. Divide 4.854 Ohm-cm by the cross section which is 0.712557392 square centimeters. The result is 681.2600618 Ohms per centimeteresfor each of the 2 tubes. We then multiply by length in centimeters of your TIG or MIG torch. Divide by 2 to account of 2 tubes electrically in parallel.

For a TIG torch with 12.5 foot long hose and electrical conductor assembly we get 304.8 centimeters of length and an electrical resistance 207648.0668 Ohms. Divide an open circuit voltage of 70 volts by this number and you get 0.539 milliamperes ( 0.000539 Amperes ) of leakage current barely above the level of human perception and absorbable by the equipment ground of the cooler. ALWAYS do the rounding after completing all calculations.

For a water cooled MIG gun 10 feet long we get 0.385 milliamperes at 40 volts. ( Actually they usually operate at a lower voltage.

There are 2 alternatives. Old World Industries d.b.a. Peak has Thermal Charge 50/50 Prediluted Heat Transfer Fluid. It is also available as concentrate to mix with distilled water. It is only available in 55 gallon drums which is great if you are filling a fleet like over at Honda. One of the welding equipment compoanies told me about this.

Interstate Chemical Corporation has a high purity propylene glycol but it is clear and has no Corrosion inhibitors such as dipotassium phosphate like Dowfrost HD does.

Mike Cole
Columbus, Ohio
Ohio Electrical Contractor License No. EL45,008
Bachelor of Science Electrical Engineering and Physics John Carroll University.

DexCool and distilled has worked for me for a very long time....

Dexcool is base on ethylene glycol which is poisonous to humans, pets and wildlife. I am posting about how to find propylene glycol coolants where the worst things in it are the rust inhibitors. Propylene glycol antifreeze is much more safe if pets or wildlife drink it.

The most economical place I can find for buying Dowfrost HD propylene glycol antifreeze is GoGlycolPros.com . The container sizes are 5 gallon, 55 gallons, and 275 gallons. The default strength is 25% propylene glycol - you have to use the drop down menu to order higher strengths such as 50% PG or concentrate that you woul mix with distilled or deionized water.

The strengths and container sizes are as follows with current prices:

1. $122 for a 5 gallon pail of 50% propylene glycol diluted with deionized water which is the least amount of hassle for filling 1 or 2 Everlast water coolers.

2. $76 for a 5 gallon pail of the Dowfrost HD concentrate. Amazon wants $155.87 for a 5 gallon pail and $39.99 for a 1 gallon bottle. A 5 gallon pail of the 50% plus a 5 gallon pail of the concentrate would work for filling 3 to 6 water coolers.

3. $373 for a 55 gallon barrel of the 50% Dowfrost HD. This is great if you are filling a large number of water coolers.

4. $658 for 55 gallons of the concentrate.

Their 5 gallon pails a cubical not round. This would be handy for refilling a 5 gallon pail of the 50% by putting say 6 quarts concentrate and 6 quarts distilled water. Also, the distilled water bottles do not contain exactly 1 gallon they actually containa wee bit more so the customer is not shortchanged.

It would also be a good idea when mixing or pouring antifreeze is to lay down 1 or more incontinence pads. They make for really great high capacity paper towels.

What will also help is a pan e.g. foot bath pan for when you need to drain the hoses of a TIG torch or water cooled MIG gun. Since Everlast will sell you a Lincoln style plugs plus plus the quick couplings you could build a bracket that holds the hose plugs over a plastic bucket. Or, completely drain 2 distilled water bottles and build something that places a coupling right in the mouth of the bottle and leave an air opening so that air can fill 1 line as the other drains.

Mike Cole

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blaster

DexCool and distilled has worked for me for a very long time....

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It'll make your starts worse. It may be working, but it isn't recommended. It can cause hose leaks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MC5W

Hi,

This is my first post. My name is Mike Cole.

I have done some research on propylene glycol antifreeze for water cooled TIG torches and water cooled MIG guns. I have found 3 alternatives to Binzel-Abicor's ABI-CoolECO coolant and Esab's Thermal Dynamics 7-35809 Extra Cool which only contain 30% propylene glycol antifreeze which will only give freeze protection down to +10 Fahrenheit. Not good for those of you who do not want to heat their garage or welding shop just to keep the TIG welder warm. These alternativees will be for making or buying a 50/50 solution with distilled water that has a freezing point of about -28 Fahrenheit. Propylene glycol is the antifreeze that is used as a food and drug additive and where you do not have to report spills to the authorities. What I have in my car engine is Prestone Lowtox propylene glycol antifreeze. This is because i do not want a leak to harm people's pets let alone what happens when I drain and flush the system once every 5 years.

You cannot use automotive propylene glycol antifreeze such as Prestone Lowtox or Peak Sierra. These contain silicates that are intended to plug small leaks and is detrimental to nonautomotive water pumps.

The most practical is Dowfrost HD which is available in 1 gallon jugs and 5 gallon pails from a number of sources. Amazon's prices are such that 3 1 gallon bottles are about the same price as a 5 gallon pail so you might as well buy the pail so you get 2 gallons free. You will have to use a turkey baster that is dedicated to the purpose and rinsed out with distilled water. This product contains a rust inhibitor and a fluorescent yellow dye which makes leaks easy to find.

One issue is how much electricity a 50/50 propylene glycol/ distilled water solution will conduct. An engineering document I found on Dow's website gave me the data to figure out electrical conductivity. To find the document Google Dowfrost and mho which is the unit of electrical conductivity and is the reciprocal of the Ohm. The electrical conductivity of a 50% by weight ( which is only 1/2% different by 50/50 volume ) Dowfrost HD and distilled water is 2.06E-3 ( 0.00206 ) mho per centimeter. Some material sheets used the more modern name of a mho which is Siemen.

Store bought distilled water is about 6 to 8 megohm-cm ( 6 to 8 million Ohms-cm ) which is find. Save the empty jugs after you use them to fill humidifiers, etc. I use it to make buffered salt water for washing my nose 3.5 quarts in what used to be a Hawaiian Punch bottle. Is 2 such containers each month.

If we take the reciprocal of this figure ( dived 1 by this figure ) we get 485.4 Ohm-cm. We then find the internal cross section of 3/8 inch inside diameter tubing which is a little bit bigger than 9 mm ID tubing. Multiply 0.375 inches by 2.54 cm per inch. Square that ( multiply it by itself ), divide by 4, then multiply by Pi ( 3.141592654 in my calculator ). This will be the cross section in square centimeters. Divide 4.854 Ohm-cm by the cross section which is 0.712557392 square centimeters. The result is 681.2600618 Ohms per centimeteresfor each of the 2 tubes. We then multiply by length in centimeters of your TIG or MIG torch. Divide by 2 to account of 2 tubes electrically in parallel.

For a TIG torch with 12.5 foot long hose and electrical conductor assembly we get 304.8 centimeters of length and an electrical resistance 207648.0668 Ohms. Divide an open circuit voltage of 70 volts by this number and you get 0.539 milliamperes ( 0.000539 Amperes ) of leakage current barely above the level of human perception and absorbable by the equipment ground of the cooler. ALWAYS do the rounding after completing all calculations.

For a water cooled MIG gun 10 feet long we get 0.385 milliamperes at 40 volts. ( Actually they usually operate at a lower voltage.

There are 2 alternatives. Old World Industries d.b.a. Peak has Thermal Charge 50/50 Prediluted Heat Transfer Fluid. It is also available as concentrate to mix with distilled water. It is only available in 55 gallon drums which is great if you are filling a fleet like over at Honda. One of the welding equipment compoanies told me about this.

Interstate Chemical Corporation has a high purity propylene glycol but it is clear and has no Corrosion inhibitors such as dipotassium phosphate like Dowfrost HD does.

Mike Cole
Columbus, Ohio
Ohio Electrical Contractor License No. EL45,008
Bachelor of Science Electrical Engineering and Physics John Carroll University.

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Mike,
Let's keep things simple here. I understand what all you are saying, but if you want to be helpful, boil it down, without all the jargon. That's what people need here, not a master's thesis.

That is why we recommend the following.

For temperate/moderate climates, or temperature controlled facilities, where no freezing is possible: Distilled water or De ionized water. About the same for practical purposes, though you'll need to change it out every 6 months.

A low conductivity non automotive coolant. There are many welding brands out there that every (nearly so anyway) local welding stores carry. Some however are MIG rated only. These are not low conductivity, but theoretically would work for our MIG applications like our Power i MIG 353dpi. The others are TIG rated, or rated for HF use. This low conductivity TIG rated, HF rated coolant is what we recommend. There are additives which act as algaecide as well. Miller makes (remarkets?) an excellent one for use in our welders, for usually about 40 to 50.00 a gallon. There are cheaper sources as well, but to keep it simple, just go and ask your welding supply store for what you need, or get it from Amazingzon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by performance

It'll make your starts worse. It may be working, but it isn't recommended. It can cause hose leaks.

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DexCool isn't like other automotive coolants, it's actually been identified as being identical to Millers coolant ;)

Hey Blaster. One of the documents at Arc-Zone.com says that the coagulants in automotive antifreeze will plug up your TIG torch. Hood Chemical says something similar.

Hey Mark, all of the low toxicity welder coolants that are commercially sold ( except the Peak product that only is in 55 gallon drums ) that use propylene glycol safety antifreeze will only protect against freezing down to +10 degrees Fahrenheit. A 50% Dowfrost HD solution packaged by GoGlycolPros will have a freezing point of about -28 degrees Fahrenheit. One of Dow's engineering documents has an electrical conductivity figure such that for 9 millimeter ID hoses 12.5 feet long the current leakage at 70 volts will be less than 1 milliampere. Easily absorbed by the equipment ground. I ahve an Ohio electrical contractor license and a Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering/Physics.

You are right that distilled water would be best but only IF the environment has heating during the winter. Most of your users need something that can actually withstand cold weather without having to bring all of their water coolers and TIG torches inside from the garage. Most of these people do not have a controlled environment where they can use distilled water or the commercial propylene glycol welder coolants that only protect to +10 Fahrenheit.

If I am using a portable TIG welder in the field it would not be in a temperature controlled environment overnight. Also, I would rather NOT be using ethylene glycol and have to report all spills to the EPA. Ohio EPA has tendencies to levy 1 million dollar fine per violation. Dowfrost is a heck of a lot cheaper than a million dollars.

What I have in my car is Prestone Lowtox PG antifreeze so that when I flush the cooling system in my car it does not matter if some goes down the storm sewer or is licked up by somebody's pet.

I forgot to mention that flow of high frequency current in the water lines can be attenuated by installing high frequency ferrite magnetic cores around each fuild line of your TIF torch. That fat object on a computer power cord is a ferrite core intended to impede high frequency currents that try to flow from the computer, through the cord and into the electrical wiring. This keeps down radio frequency interference.

There are ferrite cores that are 2 pieces that can be clamped around a cord. Newark Electronics has a ferrite core with an inside diameter of 13.8 millimeters 28.6 mm long which will fit over a 1/2 inch O.D. fluid line. They are $3.38 if you buy just 1, $2.23 each if you buy 10 or more. They have another 19.55 mm I.D. x 50.8 mm long.

Likewise, if you look in the Radio Amateur's Handbook in the chapter on radio frequency interference some of the methods are to wind the power cord of a television around a ferrite core and wind the cable TV line around another ferrite core.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MC5W

Hey Blaster. One of the documents at Arc-Zone.com says that the coagulants in automotive antifreeze will plug up your TIG torch. Hood Chemical says something similar.

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Yes, but DexCool doesn't have those...

I'm tellin' ya, the MSDS (now SDS) of DexCool and Millers coolant are the same ;)

YOUR customer support tells me that Prestone Lowtox and Peak Sierra propylene glycol automotive antifreezes cannot be used for welders. Dow is the oldest glycol antifreeze manufacturer on the market. I will bet that Miller buys their ethylene glycol welder antifreeze raw materials from Dow what is known as brand name labeling. I might as well buy right from The Source. The corrosion inhibitors in Dowtherm and Dowfrost have been working in mission critical heat transfer systems all over the USA and a few foreign countries. The corrosion inhibitors in their products are designed to last for about 20 years in most nonautomotive heat transfer systems. Dowtherm and Dowfrost cannot be used in systems that contain aluminum, magnesium, or zinc plating meaning Not for use in automobiles. The corrosion inhibitors in Dowtherm and Dowfrost will passivate copper, copper alloys, stainless steel, and a few other metals. I suggest that you READ Dow's product literature as to what it can or cannot do.

Hood chemical says that the silicates in automotive antifreeze will place a silicate gel on the heat transfer surfaces of a hydronic heating system or welder. What they forgot to say is that the silicate gel electrically insulates aluminum and magnesium engine blocks so that they will not undergo electrolytic corrosion because of steel parts in the engine cooling system.

Also, I do not want to be fighting a 1 million dollar fine from Ohio EPA. I know someone in Green, Ohio ( a little south of Akron ) who has been fighting a 1 million dollar fine since the early 1990s because he built an artificial wetland and Ohio EPA has made artificial wetlands ILLEGAL. Here in Ohio EPA is also known as Extra Prissy and the A is a certain human body part. The EPA is run by people who think that this country is a dictatorship. A 5 gallon pail of Dowfrost HD 50 from GoGlycolPros is a lot cheaper than a million dollars. I also do not want to worry about what happens when somebody's dog or cat licks up an antifreeze spill from detaching a TIG torch or MIG gun from a welder.

Dowfrost is also cheaper than cheaper than buying new welding equipment because Esab's or Abicor's weak propylene glycol antifreezes allowed a welder that is stored in a garage or jobsite storage unit to freeze up. We sometimes get subzero winters here in central Ohio.

IF a customer wants to keep their warranty in effect, then they should follow our advice. You can bet and suppose a lot here. Fine, but when it comes down to it, use the stuff that the industry recommends and don't try to get creative. No reason to.