Project #7 from Jason: 12 valve VR6 Half Build.

Well it came time to do my timing chain guides and my throw out bearing as they were both making some noise. I also have some chatter from cam to followers and just wanted a little more power now. The car is built to equal ones that have proven low 12s 1/4 miles and some in the high 11's as an all motor NA car. I have not been to any tracks yet but it definitely is faster than before. I would say 12's but my friend drove it and thinks high 11's. The list of mods includes.

Autotech 262 cams
Autotech HD valve springs
TT Titanium Retainers
MK4 HG (bumps compression to 10.5:1)
3" CAI
2.5" Testpipe and custom exhaust
BFI PEM chip for 262's and high compression (MK4 gasket), Also removes SAI and 2nd O2.
Port and Polished head, Intake manifolds, exhaust manifolds, downpipe
42MM Intake valves (+3 MM)
36MM Exhaust valves (+1.8 MM)
Resurfaced Head
New Valve guides
New cam Followers
ARP Headstuds
2.9 Clone Upper Intake manifold
1.8T IAT sensor
New clutch/pp/throw out bearing
Autotech 10lb FW (stock was 25lbs)
New timing chains/guides/tensioners
Re-grease accessory belt tensioner bearing
Newish front O2 sensor(15K on it)
BFI Stage .5 Poly Motor Mounts
ARP SS Exhaust studs
New Rear Main seal
New input shaft Seal
New Trans Fluid
Oil/Filter Change
New Oil cooler seals
New Thermostat/housing/pipe
New Oil Filter housing seal
New Oil pressure sensors
New water pump with metal impeller
Metal Valve Cover (stock was plastic, did it for looks as I will polish it later)
All New gaskets in the top end and exhaust
New exhaust hangers
Custom SS studs from ex manifolds to downpipe

The port and polishing and all building/disassembling was done myself. The seats and guides were changed by a machine shop. The machine shop also surfaced the head.

First was disassemble the head.
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2720.jpg

Next was starting to port.
First I traced the gasket to the head to match it but that's not all you need to do for effective porting. There is casting marks that need removed and also you can smooth a lot of transitions in the runners. I did make the ports a little bigger but the main focus is on the casting marks from factory.
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2721.jpg

I decided the markings was not good enough and bolted the old gasket to the head. Then begin to port all the intake runners.
Removing gasket!
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2723.jpg
Porting is almost done!
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2724.jpg

That is what I have for actual pictures of the porting at this point. Polishing will be done after all porting is completed. Next was to get the exhaust ports up to the valve guides and then taken to the machine shop to remove the guides and the seats.

oh and tools..
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2725.jpg

Next I got some work on the exhaust side done.

Start of first 2 ports being ported.
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2726.jpg

Ports not touched but I traced the gasket to show the difference in size on the exhaust side.
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2727.jpg

Almost ported vs not touched.
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2728.jpg

Four runners down and two more to go.
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2729.jpg

You can see I only went to the valve guides in those pics.

After porting the runners, the machine shop heated the head and pressed the guides out. I then got a good start to the bowls.
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2735.jpg

....

Finished the bowls and started to polish..

Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2736.jpg

Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2737.jpg

Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2738.jpg

So as I expected, the bowls for the valves did not match up to the new seats but the machine shop did not want to cut out the old seats before I ported. The day I picked it up they called and asked if I wanted to take it and finish the port work or just have them do it real fast. They said it should only take about an hour so I told them that is fine and to just get it done. The work is not bad by any means but just not as good as mine in my eyes. You can see for yourselves and I would refer people to use this shop if you have a little bit of time to wait for the work to be done. Anyways pics

Here you can see the difference in their polish vs mine. Theirs is not bad but you can see the difference between the bowls and the bottom where they go into the runners. Forgot to take a pic before putting in 2 valves.
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2754.jpg

Close up
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2755.jpg

Autotech HD springs and TT titanium retainer with larger supertech exhaust valve and stock keepers.
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2756.jpg

All of them are in and done.
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2757.jpg
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2758.jpg

....

Started to port and polish a lower intake manifold that I had sitting. I don't have pictures of it all but 4 of the 6 ports are ported. All three of the somewhat round ports are done and 1 of the round to oval ports is done. Here are some pics.

First was to mark the manifolds to the size of the gaskets. Bad idea to go larger on these cars and this is why I only went to gasket size on the head..

Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2764.jpg

Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2765.jpg

Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2766.jpg

Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2767.jpg

Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2768.jpg

Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2769.jpg

Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2770.jpg

Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2771.jpg

So not too many pictures for the amount of work done this time but I did snap some..

First. Swap the chip into the ecu.

BFI PEM stg2 High compression
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2780.jpg

Next I drained all the life out of it.
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2782.jpg

Off came the front clip
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2785.jpg

Off with the upper intake manifold
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2787.jpg

Tear down the stuff connecting to the motor.
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2788.jpg

Get it ready to pull
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2790.jpg

And pull.
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2791.jpg
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2792.jpg

Now tear down the motor.
Here is the upper chain guide that usually wears out
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2796.jpg

Head off and started cleaning surface
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2797.jpg
....

ARP studs and gasket ready for its new top half
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2798.jpg

And reassemble
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2800.jpg
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2801.jpg

Now what good is a ported head if the manifolds are not done….. exhaust mani quick port job
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2802.jpg
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2807.jpg
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2808.jpg
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2809.jpg

Put ARP stainless steel exhaust studs in. Also made stainless stud for manifolds.
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2805.jpg

And finish assembling
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2810.jpg
Http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/12VBuild/100_2811.jpg

Now everything is done except for the upper intake manifold and exhaust.

I didn't track of porting on anything except the exhaust manifolds which I spent about 2 hours on. The car had 220K miles on it so I had a hard time with a few things but I spent time over 4 days working on this and getting it all done. The head porting and such was done before these 4 days. I have a little over 1000 miles on this now and it is running great.

You may have mentioned it, but how did the crank/bearings look after you tore it down? Also, I am assuming that you put new pistons/rings in as well?

I did not touch the bottom end at this time. That was partly why I went with headstuds as I can reuse them unlike stretch bolts. This bottom end will be built later for turbo but for now I was not doing the bottom end. VW's bearings have a lot tighter clearences than other makes and they usually do not have problems. In most cases when a bearing goes it is caused by the stretch bolts. When the head was off, I did feel for play by trying to wiggle the pistons in the cylinders but they felt fine. The motor ran strong before doing the work to it.

Did you re-use the stock pistons/rings or did you go aftermarket?

I see an old VR6 "crackpipe". I used to have a Passat VR6, and remembered some sort of problems with that on mine, source of a coolant leak. I think a previous mechanic got lazy and didn't clean the bore where the crack pipe o-ring seated. I think I just cleaned it all up, put in a new crackpipe and o-ring and problem was solved.

Question - how do you like the air hose rotator I see you have attached to a couple of your air tools? I've been thinking of getting something like it for my die grinders. And maybe a light, flexible air hose "whip" on the end to make it even less cumbersome.

@morgaj: I didn't take them out at all. I didn't even drop the pan as the plan was top end now and then I will do the bottom later. Bump in compression is from a thinner HG. This car is a MK3 which had a different material gasket than the newer model MK4. Using the MK4 HG bumps the compression and with chip has shown ~8WHP.

@jakeru: I found that there are quite a few people on here that know VW's :) You are correct that the coolant pipe in that pic is old. I replaced it with both o-rings but did not take a picture with the new one on. As to the swivel ends, I gotta say I do like them. I didn't use one on the silver grinder and did on the black one. I do like having them better as the hose hangs and is less of a pain.

I have not mentioned the new plans for this car yet so here we go.. The N/A build was only temp as I mentioned before and the end goal is to build the bottom end and go turbo. Well that process is now in the works.. Parts collection time...

GTX3582R with Tial .82a/r
3.0L 9:1 JE Forged Pistons
Integrated Engineering Forged H Beam rods
Coated rob bearings (already coated mains)
Tial 38mm MVS wastegate
Tial 50mm QR BOV
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3190.JPG

Integrated Engineering Surge Tank
Bosch 044 Fuel Pump
630cc Injectors
Oil Feed/Return Lines/Fittings
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3194.JPG

CM FX400 6 Puck Clutch
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3195.JPG

Going to run this on Megasquirt 3/3x Standalone. Still need the MS3/3x, Innovate MTX-L wideband, silicon coolant hoses, Metal coolant pipe, gaskets, and intercooler. Thinking about going air/water..

Should make for a nice ~500whp daily driver.

And a more recent pic other than it has the plug wires off.. I finished the upper manifold and such..
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/IMG_0797.JPG

Fitted AN fittings for my catch can
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/IMG_0798.JPG

Nice. Especially the turbo part :-)

That is pretty much teh same turbo I have on my bike (just a gt3582R, not a gtx).
Did you go with the gtx for any particular reason? Seems they don't outperform a regular GT35 until very high boost.

I read someplace that they have better spool charactorists and are something like 10% more efficient. I thought about the GT3582R but decided to just spend the extra for the GTX for no real reason really.. I plan to run ~20-25 PSI and have the ability for more.

A few guys put them on bikes. They only seem to make much difference about 30psi. I believe one said it made about 12hp more at high boost. Might be a bit different at the higher flow, lower boost for your larger displacement application, I haven't really looked into them too much.

Yea I wonder if the larger displacement would make any difference. Either way if I don't make the power that I want I can throw more boost at it later. I want to build the trans before I put too much power down and I should be ok to throw more than 30PSI with some different injectors and a second bosch 044 pump.. Running standalone would save me from having the cost of software again plus the internals will hold.. 9:1CR might be something to look at a little but I am pretty sure others are running like 36PSI on 9:1. One of the build I know of was running 36PSI and made well over 800WHP.. In a 2900LB FWD car, that is too much power so 500-600WHP is more than enough for me. My other build I have posted here that is going twin turbo and AWD will be my toy to make the 800-1000WHP if I decide I want to push limits.. The stock trans on that car will only take 550AWHP though so I would have to build that trans up also.. Then again 550AWHP in a ~3300LB car seems like it would be more than enough to. :)

Great project and you are smart not to go too crazy with horsepower on a light front wheel drive car. Now, going "twin turbo and AWD will be my toy to make the 800-1000WHP" sounds like a really fun ride too .... ;)

What a monster! The porting looks nice. Do you have professional experience with porting heads, or are you a hobbyist like the rest of us? Looks like you've done porting before.

I couldn't help but laugh when I saw the ashtray of cigarette butts next to all the grinding tools. Reminded me of the guy I used to work with in the HVAC shop that smoked. When we installed the fiberglass insulation to the HVAC ducting, the company provided dust masks for us to use (to save our lungs from the fiberglass). His always had a hole cut out of the center so he could smoke when he was out there cutting insulation by himself. I always joked with him that if the smoking didn't kill his lungs, the fiberglass would sneak in right behind it and finish the job...Unless OSHA walked in and saw him smoking in the workplace first and terminated his job!:D

Nice, with the turbo pics and all, I bet we'll see some welding going on for this project soon (with boost tubes, exhaust parts, etc). Should be fun. I'm curious which air-water type setup you're considering?

I do hope you are planning to run a limited slip differential of some sort to put the FWD power down. I am pretty happy with the Peloquin 020 in my Rabbit autocrosser.

Peloquin's Planetary Torque-Sensing Differentials:
http://www.peloquins.com/products.html

This was actually my first time porting a head but I had some knowledge about it before jumping into it. In regards to the ashtray, I had 0 participation with filling it :P (asthma) but it was my friends shop although he did have help filling it. All my "car" knowledge and experience has come from hobbiest interest. I know people who work in the industry and some who have gone to school for it but my main career is in computers (Networking and Software/Systems engineering).

The 020 trans bolts to a 4 cyl and is very weak actually. The MK3 VR6 had a O2A 5 speed which can swap internals and other parts with the MK4 O2J.. I have not decided on what my trans setup will be in the end but for now it will be factory. I expect that the trans will destroy some gears before it comes out but regardless, a LSD is in the plans. I am just trying to decide if I want to buy SQS gears and stay with the O2A 5 speed or if I want to swap to the O2M 6 speed from a MK4 24v VR6 car. It is more work to swap as I would need to make a custom mount, custom length axles and some other bits but that trans should be good to hold ~550hp in stock form.

The current plans do involve some welding which I need my new 255 EXT for. Current plans include a custom short run intake manifold, a tubular exhaust manifold, down pipe, and boost pipes. Eventually the custom build 2.5 inch exhaust will come offand a 3 inch will be built to go on.

Intercooler wise, I was thinking about getting a setup from FrozenBoost but have not decided. I might just stay simple and go with a good air/air front mount since its a daily driver and I don't plan to run an ice box anyways.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jason

This was actually my first time porting a head but I had some knowledge about it before jumping into it. In regards to the ashtray, I had 0 participation with filling it :P (asthma) but it was my friends shop although he did have help filling it. All my "car" knowledge and experience has come from hobbiest interest. I know people who work in the industry and some who have gone to school for it but my main career is in computers (Networking and Software/Systems engineering).

The 020 trans bolts to a 4 cyl and is very weak actually. The MK3 VR6 had a O2A 5 speed which can swap internals and other parts with the MK4 O2J.. I have not decided on what my trans setup will be in the end but for now it will be factory. I expect that the trans will destroy some gears before it comes out but regardless, a LSD is in the plans. I am just trying to decide if I want to buy SQS gears and stay with the O2A 5 speed or if I want to swap to the O2M 6 speed from a MK4 24v VR6 car. It is more work to swap as I would need to make a custom mount, custom length axles and some other bits but that trans should be good to hold ~550hp in stock form.

The current plans do involve some welding which I need my new 255 EXT for. Current plans include a custom short run intake manifold, a tubular exhaust manifold, down pipe, and boost pipes. Eventually the custom build 2.5 inch exhaust will come offand a 3 inch will be built to go on.

Intercooler wise, I was thinking about getting a setup from FrozenBoost but have not decided. I might just stay simple and go with a good air/air front mount since its a daily driver and I don't plan to run an ice box anyways.

---

I have asthma too, plus I'm allergic to cigarette smoke. I have to laugh at the people I know who smoke continually, as I can see what their future holds...Pain, suffering, and lung cancer. If I didn't laugh, I'd probably get angry or start sobbing uncontrollably (haha, well not really). I watched my grandfather battle chronic Emphysema after smoking and drinking for 45 years straight (daily) and the last few years of his life were spent next to an oxygen cylinder. Getting a glass of water or a napkin from the kitchen at dinner time became a 15 ordeal most of the time, and it was only 20 feet away! You can't tell others that though, they have to learn on their own.

It really looks like you knew what you were doing with those chambers and ports. I am like you in the sense that I know just enough about porting to get myself into a little trouble, but nowhere near the amount that the professionals (who do this all day long) know. I ported a few pairs of air-cooled VW heads and manifolds over the years, and I learned a lot. It's a fun way to keep your hobby interesting, with a minimal cost of parts. I went to college and got welding, machining, and automotive certificates, but now I wish I had gotten into computers and a few other areas I'm clueless about! My neighbor and my Aunt both help me out with computer problems that arise, but it would be nice to not have to count on them!

Your intake and exhaust projects sound fun! I have a few of those as well that I need a bigger (AC capable) tig welder to complete. That 255EXT sounds like a sweet machine! I'd love to own one one day!

I got to thinking about this turbo on a bike and wouldn't this be a rather large turbo for a bike? What is spool like? Laggy? I guess on a bike you are rev happy with it and are way out there but what is the initial spool like? I know this turbo is too large for what I would put on a 1.8T 4 cyl application.. The largest I would suggest on that is a 3076R and they really seem to like the GT28RS although fully spooled is getting up there. I could have gone larger on my motor but spool gets out there for what I would like to set my redline to. Factory redline is 7000 i think and my current NA chip lifts it 7200 which is probably what I will tune the standalone to. I do have heavy duty springs and titanium retainers so I really could rev higher without a problem but valve float in a motor with this much money and a daily driver seems too risky for what I want..

Got some more of my components for this build and got started on somethings..

Innovate MTX-L Widband
MegaSquirt 3 v3.57 Standalone
MegaSquirt 3x expansion
4 bar MAP sensor with second sensor for barometric correction
Boost solenoid
Harnesses
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3196.JPG

Nothin like pulling apart a brand new $650 standalone to modify it.
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3197.JPG
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3198.JPG

New MapDaddy 4 bar with barometric correction
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3199.JPG

Remove the 2.5 bar map sensor that comes in the standalone
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3200.JPG
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3202.JPG

Solder in the 4 bar
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3203.JPG
I got the board a little hot with my big *** tip I had on my iron but its ok :/
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3204.JPG
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3205.JPG

Next was add a jumper wire from JS5 to the barometric correction sensor
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3206.JPG
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3207.JPG

Notice JS5 next to the emtpy hole.. This is under the white colored board.
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3208.JPG

Put it back together... What a close fit
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3211.JPG

I decided to tear down my spare factory ECU so I could create a Plug and Play solution.

Next was add a jumper wire from JS5 to the barometric correction sensor
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3206.JPG
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3207.JPG

Notice JS5 next to the emtpy hole.. This is under the white colored board.
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3208.JPG

Put it back together... What a close fit
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3211.JPG
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3214.JPG
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3215.JPG

http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3216.JPG
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3217.JPG

Next I moved on to control... I have not fully decided how I want to control power to the new components. I can wire the 12v lead to the factory 12v pin and run the ECU off the factory relay or I can use my own main ECU relay and power the ECU with it and altimately power a block for anything that needs to be ECU switched.. Also since I will have my factory fuel pump plus the 044, I can decide if I wanna run both off of the factory relay or use a seperate relay for the bosch. Anyways I wired this up for the time being and am leaning towards using it..
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3220.JPG
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3221.JPG
1 relay for ECU and one for 044 pump.
1 block is IGN switched +12v and the other(has 044 relay) is ECU switched +12v

To explain, the IGN switched block powers the ECU relay turning on the ECU through the brown (ground) wire and jumps power to the ECU switched block. The ECU block has the power for the pump relay and the ground wire from this would go to the ECU as the ECU turns on the pump by grounding out the relay. This is why the relay must be ECU switched and not given a constant +12v as it may back feed into the ECU keeping it powered up. Also notice the fuse block to provide the constant +12v to the relays. The extra red +12v wire coming off the pump relay goes to the pump + side.

Make sure all connectors have dielectric greese
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3222.JPG

Back to the harness, I put a hole in the side of the factory case for the wires to it in
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3225.JPG

Make it so I can remove the wires from the case if I want (prob will to feed the harness through firewall)
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3233.JPG

Start soldering the wires to the correct pins
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3234.JPG
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3238.JPG
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3241.JPG

And eventually they are all attached other than grounds which I will prob pull to the battery and the boost solenoid signal
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3242.JPG
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3243.JPG

In the last pic, you will notice extra wires rolled up. These wires are not used in my setup so I will tie them up inside the car. The MS3 and MS3x have seperate harnesses so I split them each into two strands (used wires vsnon used). I then joined the two harnesses into one so I will have one strand rolled up in the car that does not get used and one run to the rain tray where it will plug into the factory harness at the factory ecu location.
MS3 harness (non covered wires are not used)
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3226.JPG

MS3x harness joined with MS3.. All unuesed wires rolled up in one cover and all used wires in the other cover.
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3230.JPG
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3231.JPG

And that is where it sits. I have already gone through and setup the ecu for the car so it should hopefully be put it in the car, plug it in and start+run the car.. It will need to be tuned still though.. I am also considering getting 6 EGT sensors before the turbo setup is run so I can make sure all my cylinders are equal before tuning based on the AFR.. On the VR6 motor, the back 3 cylinders tend to run hotter so running sequential fuel, I can dump a little extra fuel into those cyls to cool them and equalize them all out. Most people claim 5 to 10 % more fuel is required in these cylinders. The MegaSquirt system would then be able to connect with the EGT sensors either directly with some mods I believe or by using a module for the EGT sensors that then would communicate with the MegaSquirt over CAN-H and CAN-L channels.

So more parts are here.
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3253.JPG

Started putting the standalone in the car. Cut a hole in the rain tray area to run the harness through.
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/IMG_1191.JPG

Ran the grounds over to the battery
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/IMG_1192.JPG

These wrapped wires are ground and the rest of the harness to the bay is visible towards the top of the pic
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/IMG_1194.JPG

Ran the harness for the wideband O2, a wire to hook up one of the widebands outputs to the factory O2 plug, and had to add a wire I fforgot to put in the MS3 harness to switch on the factory grounds. Also notice the new home made gromets the plug the hole :)
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3249.JPG

My friend Kyle climbed under my LOW ### car to swap my O2 sensor... Nice of him
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/IMG_1198.JPG

Temp pod for the O2 guage
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3247.JPG

Temp ground hookup. Thinking about putting them on a terminal block and runing one or two large grounds to the battery from the terminal block.
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3251.JPG

Kyle hooking up my relay/terminal pieces to the factory relay panel... I decided to get rid of the IGN terminal block and just use one of the legs on the ECU switched block. I only needed two things hooked to the IGN switched power so we just put them on the same screw and cut out an entire block. The fuse block and single terminal block are now 3M tapped to the bottom of the factory fuse panel and holding fine..Can't see them unless you are bent over looking under there.
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3246.JPG

Plugged in the MS3 for a temp time to try it out. Found it didn't work right off the bat..
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3245.JPG

When I started this, I made a spreadsheet to show which wire of the factory plug/harness went to each wire of the MegaSquirt/MegaSquirt3x harnesses.
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/IMG_1159.JPG

The first issue I ran into was getting the correct reading from my crank sensor. After figuring out the crank sensor wiring of the harness I got which was different than others usually wire these in vw's, I was able to get some signal input. There was still a problem with it but it wasn't too bad of an issue once we started to work it out. Everyone I know of running the MS on their VW has the crank sensor set to falling edge. This is in relation to the sensor counting the teeth on the crank sensor wheel. In the following pic you can see two long teeth (One really long and one semi.. About half of the really long one) which indicates that I needed to change the MS3 to change the software to look at the raising edge rather than the falling edge.
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/IMG_1205.JPG

Once that was resolved, the motor fired right up however the idle was wandering but I had not yet set that up in the software. I quickly set the tune to control the idle and realized I need to either modify my MS3 by adding a TIP120 and a diode into the PWM FIDLE (Idle) circuit or switch over to using the Idle output on the MS3x. The current plan is to switch over to the MS3x Idle output and give that a shot tuning the MS to use PWM Warmup Only output to control the Idle valve. With the generation of my car, the MS3x output is hit or miss whether it will just work or not so I need to test it and if it does not work then I will mod the FIDLE circuit and switch back to using that. Either way I can resolve it and that is next step. Following the Idle will be some tunning on the NA motor and then I move to building the new motor setup followed by the turbo setup :)

A guy I know has a '53 beetle with a turbocharged 2.0 watercooled motor in it and recently started having MS crank trigger issues with it as well. Not sure if he got it figured out.

The tooth logger definetly helped diagnose my problem with it. If his was already working, might wanna make sure the sensor is not going out. They like to stop reading when they get warm when they are bad. The cars will start and run unitl it gets up to running temps and then it dies until it cools down.

He said he tried two other sensors. Now he is kind of out of ideas, unless it is the MS box itself. He had a wild ### idea that the crank may have become magnetized, but I've never experiences that.

Absolutely awesome build!

Nice work! The MS wiring harness looks like a nightmare but you seem to have a methodical approach. Good notes go a long way to diagnosing issues down the road.

Does the MS read direct from a lambda sensor or does it take an output from the Innovate?

First off, I will answer the lamda question. The Innovate wide band was put in place of my factory sensor. When running the wideband, it has a harness that actually goes to a plug on the guage. The wideband controller is built into the guage. Now the nice thing about this was it has 2 analog outputs but they are off the back of the controller. I have one wired to the MS harness and wired the other to the factory harness where the factory sensor plugged in. I actually clipped the wires from the back of the sensor and then wired the wideband output (one of the red wires) to the signal wire of the factory sensor plug. This means the wideband will provide both the factory ECU and the MS. This has made troubleshooting more efficient and reasonable. I just swap the factory plug and hook up the vacuum line and plug in the MS.. If you notice the pink wire in the pic with the MS, that is the lamda wire for the MS which then has a tad bit of a loop hanging down in the pic of kyle plugging into the relay panel.

Now on to the update.... I switched from using the MS3 to control the idle valve to using the MS3x Idle control and realized I had hooked up ms3/28 but not to vw pin 23. I ran ms3/28 over to the the ign switch leg of the terminal block off the relay panel. After switching to the MS3x Idle control, it still was not working out. That night I tried all kinds of PWM setting but couldn't seem to get an idle at all. Last night we were at it again and right off I re calibrated the TPS, Changed my required fuel value, and make a complete change to the fuel ve table. The coolant temp was 137 at this point but I decided to turn the key anyways and sure enough it fired right up and idled.

Now on to the next wave of steps. My idle is a tad high (100 - 150 RPM) so I need to figure out whats up with that. On to the next step, it acts like there is a fuel cut at 2200RPM when just reving it. Idle is sitting at a pretty steady 14.4 with minimal fluctuation of up to maybe 14.7. The final minor issue currently is the AFR guage in MS is .4 higher than the innovate AFR guage but I have a pretty sure cause for this and I just need to fix it. In most MS installs, they say to ground the MS to the engine. I grounded it at the battery which I believe is still ok. The issue is that I grounded the Innovate under the dash which they tend to show the difference when not grounded at the engine. I will actually move the ground to the battery where the MS is but highly considering the switch to a ground terminal block by the battery with a single short 12GA wire to the battery. Either way I believe that grounding the Innovate at the same location as the MS will take care of the output difference. Finally after these things are worked out, it will be time to tune the cruise followed by WOT tunning. and then the fine tunning will follow it. I will post some pictures later once I get them online.

I've seen offsets from Innovate controllers from their digital outputs to the analog outputs as well. Seems they are fairly sensitive to loading on the analog outputs. Assuming the digital out is as "good as it gets", I've seen where folks tweak the transfer function to make the analog numbers match the digital.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sportbike

I've seen offsets from Innovate controllers from their digital outputs to the analog outputs as well. Seems they are fairly sensitive to loading on the analog outputs. Assuming the digital out is as "good as it gets", I've seen where folks tweak the transfer function to make the analog numbers match the digital.

---

It would be nice to answer to the "which is right?" question. I have a Innovate now, but haven't run it yet. In a previous car, I had an AEM unit and it read .2 to .5 richer than the dyno sensor while tuning. I took the conservative route and followed the dyno.

My Innovate was reading .6 lower than the MS but it is correct to follow the Innovate Guage.. Imoved the ground for the Innovate to the same location as the MS tonight and now it is only .1-.2 lower than the MS. There is still another wire I could try moving and I am probably going to move all the grounds from the battery to the engine anyways so we will see. Even with a .1 to .2 difference, I can live with that.

While trying to work out the cutout issues at ~2200 RPM I was also tuning Idle and trying to get it down near 850 as its sitting ~1000. I got the AFR to sit at a solid 14.4 and pretty stable at about 1000 with adjusting ign timing and the fuel map but could not get it down to the 850. After getting the pretty stable idle and the AFR where I want it, I realized that for some reason the tune had lost the setting for my 4 bar map sensor that I had modified the MS with. I reset the map sensor calibration which then meant I had to go change my fuel map and such again but it did clear up my response issue and the fact I wasnt reaching the expected values in the map but I thought that may have been because we were not driving. Now the map sensor is correct again and the response is great and the idle is looking good still at ~1000 RPM though.

I moved on to capturing some logs of the cutout problem which I thought maybe some timing adjustments may help however they did not. After diagnosing the logs, I may still have issues with my crank sensor it seems.

This first picture shows the log right before a cut.
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/MS_Cut_1.png

Notice the key points of this issue outlined by Blue Boxes.
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...MS_Cut_1_1.png

Now a shot as a cut happens.
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/MS_Cut_2.png

Again the key points outlined in Blue
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...MS_Cut_2_1.png

If you notice the Lost Sync count increased. Also looking at this, the SecL number increased. With both of these numbers increasing, I know the cut was not an ECU reset or at least can assume that. This indicated a problem with the crank sensor and you will notice in Blue again that the error reason is code 2. Code 2 actually works out to "missing tooth at wrong time".

I guess next will be working on figuring out this issue now. I am going to start with adjusting a POT on the MS main board but we will see what it is.

I haven't really followed MS for awhile, but VW beetle with the 2.0L turbo engine in it guy noted that he ended up tweaking the pots for the crank sensor to get his to quit dropping the signal. Not really sure what he actually did, or what the pots even do exactly.
Screw is, give them all a tweak and see what it does...:O

As for the idle, I'd check to be sure you don;t have any vacuum leaks or a crack in a TB boot or similar.
Assuming you are using some sort of ISC motor, is it fully closed and the idle is still too high? Maybe the thottle plate is hanging open a little?

Idle is dead perfect on the factory ECU. My idle valve is set to PWM Warmup only so it opens the tb 0% at 160 deg F or higher. I just need to work through it still.

In regards to the crank sensor, could play with one of the POTs on the JP1 jumper but that still may not fix it. Today I have spent a little bit of time and modified the MS to what should correct the problem. At idle the tooth logger is perfect and there is no issue with it.

So today the mod started by getting some resistors.
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3263.JPG

and tear down again..
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3264.JPG

locate JP1
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3266.JPG
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3267.JPG

Take off jumper
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3273.JPG

And solder resistor as a jumper between pins 1 and 2
http://www.projekt6.com/jackal/Galle...d/100_3272.JPG


Next is to try it and make sure that resolves the sync loss at ~2200 RPM..

I am also thinking about ordering a knock module to mod my MS3 with so that I can hook up my knock sensors and tune for those before I start running the new motor with boost.

here's what the VW guy I referred to did to his. Not sure any of it is relevant to your application, although the diode swap may be useful.

"Replaced D24 (1N4001 diode) with a faster recovery (1N4148 diode) turned pots both ccw then turned them cw until I got a clean lower rpm signal. Test ran and had a really bad stutter 4-5500 rpm .changed plugs from Super 8 copper to iridium ( both resistor type) and then it revved smooth the whole rpm range.The ckp sensor has a .010 shim (I believe when the crank was magnafluxed they didn't fully demagnetize it and it has a magnetic field causing interference). The AFR issue ended up being a shorted relay that was dropping voltage to the pump intermittently."