Problems/Failure Rate by Unit Model - New vs Old?

[dirtyfarmer]

QUOTE "Normally, if you loose an IGBT, it will take out the other which might take them all out. So things look real bad because of that. With the power they pump out, if there is a failure, there will be smoke and noise in most cases.
I've not seen one like that as well, but Eric's guys will get you up and running." --Everlast Support Team

now from 'Farmer,
I've started this thread with a quote taken from another because I'm curious and maybe other future buyers might be wondering the same thing. (If the Mods decide this info would be just bad marketing, feel free to delete it).
All the newer machines in your line-up use IGBT technology, and I would like to know how the problem/failure rate compares to past Mosfet designs. If they could be categorized by model, all the better (or even just by type- MIG,TIG,Multi, Plasma). I don't expect to see real numbers soon, but a general reply would be good for now. I love my PP256 and hope it lives a long and happy life!

[geezer]

Here is an article that will explain most of the things you need to know :http://www.crown.co.za//resources/do.../Inverters.pdf

[dirtyfarmer]

geezer, I've done research about inverters before my PP256 purchase. What I was hoping this thread would provide was some information about the quality of Everlast products. Something like "things gone wrong per 1000 units" or a yardstick similar to what is used to quantify quality ratings of the various auto companies. Maybe even a comparison to the other big welding equipment makers, quality-wise. (Only I wanted to take a somewhat tactful approach to start it going). Just looking to get an answer to a question a prospective purchaser might ask or want to know.
Again, I think my PP256 is a great invention, but still I'm curious about the percentage of satisfied customers (or Unsatisfied), if those numbers are out there to be seen.
This thread may seem "out-of-line", but I view Everlast as a major contender in their field, and I'm sure that they do also. So how about some statistics?

[geezer]

I doubt if that type of information (failure/return for warreny rates) would be given out to anybody by anybody regardless of maker.
The website I posted does give a person a good idea of what to expect with IGBT modules, I'm confident that they are they way to with welding equipment, mossfets have their place and they do work with welding equipment but IGBT's are the newest tech.

Failures on any of the units will most likely be minor components like resistors caps , soldered joints etc. Your PP256 will last a long time same as my 250EX, have no fear you made the right choice, if it survived shipping and handling and it functions, with resonable care there is no reason it shouldn't out last the owner just like anyother electronic device.

[dirtyfarmer]

OK, I concede. Consider it dropped. But, as to electronics lifespan, I just had to "eat" a 42" Samsung plasma TV that died 7 months out of warranty and was told it would cost at least 75% of it's purchase price to fix. So, excuse the gun-shyness.

[geezer]

Look on the bright side, now you have more hobby/welding time instead of sitting on the couch watching TV. I hate things that last two days longer then the warranty, it's like they built it into the system.

[dgarnier]

it would be nice to be able to get the specs on the IGBT chips - then you could look up the mean time to fail and see what the chip mfg rates them at

[dirtyfarmer]

Look on the bright side, now you have more hobby/welding time instead of sitting on the couch watching TV. I hate things that last two days longer then the warranty, it's like they built it into the system.

I'm still wasting time in front of our new 50" LG plasma (really think I should get the extended warranty). We use it as our PC monitor, as well as TV watching. Along with a wireless keyboard and mouse, can relax on the couch while I try to "up" my post count. Will be glad when gets to the "60 additional" count. Then I can work more on my "pick-up on a motorhome chassis" project.

[dgarnier]

50" monitor my eyes just hurt thinking about have to scan all 50"

[performance]

dirtyfarmer,
I posted some info over on ww a couple weeks ago. I don't have specifics, but over the past 7 years, we have had a little over 1500 failures of some sort over the last 7 years out of 20k+ units. The overwhelming majority of the failures were mosfet units. Depending upon the unit, we typically have from less than 1% to about 5% issue rate with the IGBT models, with the MIG and Stick machines leading the pack in reliability and at the tail end...Keep in mind that is not failures of the IGBT's...That is total issue rate. IF we see a tick up, it is usually temporary and its not usually related to IGBT's, but a simple issue, which many customers can resolve for themselves. Our recent return of problem units to the factory, revealed about 60% of them worked as they should when they were tested. This was our impetus to secure a repair facility in the US. ...Already, several cases have turned out to be operator error. Even if you discount the 60% to 40% (in case of transient problems) that is a significant number of non issues...making almost impossible to keep accurate records on failures.
While I would not say we never see a IGBT failure, it isn't anywhere near the amount of problems experienced with mosfets.

[dgarnier]

hmm if the are so few units that are really bad then why is it that 1 guy has been waiting for more then 1 month to get a machine back from the repair shop. Also seem to recall someone sending a unit in for repair that was checked out and the repair guy said it was ok, and shipped back olny to find it still had the same problem with the gas valve

[dirtyfarmer]

dirtyfarmer,
I posted some info over on ww a couple weeks ago. I don't have specifics, but over the past 7 years, we have had a little over 1500 failures of some sort over the last 7 years out of 20k+ units. The overwhelming majority of the failures were mosfet units. Depending upon the unit, we typically have from less than 1% to about 5% issue rate with the IGBT models, with the MIG and Stick machines leading the pack in reliability and at the tail end...Keep in mind that is not failures of the IGBT's...That is total issue rate. IF we see a tick up, it is usually temporary and its not usually related to IGBT's, but a simple issue, which many customers can resolve for themselves. Our recent return of problem units to the factory, revealed about 60% of them worked as they should when they were tested. This was our impetus to secure a repair facility in the US. ...Already, several cases have turned out to be operator error. Even if you discount the 60% to 40% (in case of transient problems) that is a significant number of non issues...making almost impossible to keep accurate records on failures.
While I would not say we never see a IGBT failure, it isn't anywhere near the amount of problems experienced with mosfets.

Thank you Everlast! This is what I was looking for when I started this thread,and I felt there would be lots of others wondering about the number of units being sold.
As to the 50" monitor, I sit back5 or 6 feet. No scanning needed. Beats burning eyes and hot thighs from using the laptop too long.

[ScratchStart]

if you do decide to replace them remember as long as you got the same capacitance, the voltage can be a higher number. for example if you have a 1.5 microfarad cap, rated at 5 Volts then you can use a 1.5 microfarad cap rated at 25 Volts, and it will actually be less prone to failure.

think of a capacitor like a fuel tank, the 1.5 is the type of fuel it will hold, and the Volts is the ammount. You just gotta have the right tank, and then depending on space available, the bigger the better.

if you wanna post up some pics of the power board, and others, I'd take a look at em and let you know what I think.

[ScratchStart]

dirty farmer, u still got that TV? and a multimeter? and a hair dryer? I have fixed about 12 of those TV's, if you willing to take them apart they are simple to test. unless we are talking about a problem with the actual screen....

oh, and sorry for going off topic... maybe this should be moved to the "no welder required forum"

[dirtyfarmer]

Yeah, still got it . It's still opened up, laying on a table, upstairs in my barn. I paid an authorized repair shop $75 to tell me it would cost at least $450 to fix. I told them to list the boards (part #) that they wanted to replace, on my receipt for the $75 I paid them, which they did. I then went on Ebay and found the exact boards that I thought I needed. They were $75 for both. I thought:" not to bad." Got the supposedly "good" boards and swapped them out. I also found The official Samsund service/repair tech manual on-line, and according to it , the problem I had, "Sound but no picture", could be caused by these two boards as long as two other "Power supply" boards checked OK. So I assumed the repair shop had checked them and that is why they told me I needed the ones I got from Ebay. Anyway, still no picture, and now down $150. If you can fix this come and get it. I'm in Michigan, near Port Huron. It's a Samsung PN42A450P. Also, for the "Sound, but no picture" problem troubleshooting, the last thing to replace is the screen.

[ScratchStart]

wish I was close, I'd snatch it up in a hearbeat.

the most common problem with those samsungs is a simple capacitor malfunction.

the capacitors look like this


on your main power board there will be 6 or more of them.

main power board will look something like this.


you can see those things come in many sizes, but if the bottom is not perfectly flat, or they are leaking a little yellowish crud, they won't do their job(i know someone is gonna say "that is not the best way to check them". but who has the money for a capacitance tester, and who wants to desolder each of these off the board to test them?)

I have had a few samsungs, LG's, and even a sony TV apart, and every single time it is the capacitors that are causing the problem. I'm not saying it couldn't be something else, but in my experience(however limited) caps every time.

my I had to replace 6 of them, got caps at radioshack, cost me $10.

an easy test, turn the power on to the tv, find a station, and heat the capacitors up with your wifes hair dryer(yes, I said hair dryer) if the sound comes on when you heat them up, you got your problem for sure.

also samsung boards are market on the pins and connectors that go to the other boards, each little strip will be market with how much voltage it should put to that pin.

some good info here: Grants Pass TV Repairs

[dirtyfarmer]

I've seen all the stuff about capacitor failures and all of mine looked good. I'll take another closer look with a magnifier. Yes, a cap replace would have been cheaper.