Hybrid Tungsten?

[sportbike]

Has anyone use arc Time Hybrid Tungsten"?

Seems to be a one variety fits all option for tungsten. The price looks a little bit more expensive, but the convenience of a single tungsten might be worth the small cost bump.

I saw them when browsing at Arc-Zone
http://www.arc-zone.com/index.php?ma...ath=13_699_714

John

[Tritium]

I have been looking at these from different manufacturers but haven't put any cash into it yet, however, Diamond Ground Products (http://www.diamondground.com/index.html) sent me a tri-blend 3/32 tungsten as a free sample to try. I will report when I try it out.

They also have a good paper on choosing tungsten electrodes.

Thurmond

[Ray]

I haven’t used the Arc Time brand, but am very fond on the Tri-Mix made by Diamond Ground. Don’t know how similar it is but same deal on the cost. They claim it’s a Top Secrete and proprietary compound.
I’ve used it on Ac and Dc and think it holds a point better than Lanthanated.
I have noticed though, that something in the mix seems to migrate to the tip after a while and forms a small cobalt blue ball on the tip. It has less a tendency to form that dark grey oxide layer that the 2% Lanthanated does.
Overall I like it allot.

[Ray]

Sorry, I somehow accidently closed this thread, guess I should pay attention.
Reopened.

[jakeru]

I haven't tried the DGP tri-mix Ray, but a blue or otherwise discolored (purple, brown, etc) tungsten tip suggests you may be oxidizing your tungsten from inadequate inert gas shielding. I've run into it on my lanthanated tunsgen when I oxidize it, usually from not holding the TIG torch still during post-flow for long enough. The tungsten needs to stay in an inert environment until it cools off below its oxidation temperature. You also might notice smoke and contamination on your next arc start.

About tri-mix, when I spoke to an someone (can't remember this name at the moment...) at DGP about what tungsten to use for being able to weld a variety of metals including thick aluminum, I was a little surprised that they were totally poo-poo'ing the tri-mix and recommended 2% lanthanated.

[miller7018]

I use the Arc-Zone hybrid tungstens all the time. the company is great to deal with, fast shipping lots of good info. 10/10 in my book. order the tungsten sharpner at the same time, they work great to. miller7018

[Wookie]

i would be curious to see a x ray of a weld made with this to see how much if any tungsten is spit out into the weld causing discontinuities

[Wookie]

for all my stuff that is xrayed i use either (red) thoriated or (orange) Ceriated or on a transformer machine (Green) pure
I am curious to see if a WPS is made up that calls for blue band or if the AWS even recognizes it

[hooda]

What exactly do you mean by easier starts? I'm relatively new to TIG, so I'm confused with wether it's me, the tungsten, or the machine(to the point that I hauled my 1000+ pound welder to the repair shop to verify that it was OK). Sometimes the tungsten just wants to dance around doing a fuzzy arc, other times it won't go at all, just wondering.

[jakeru]

What exactly do you mean by easier starts? I'm relatively new to TIG, so I'm confused with wether it's me, the tungsten, or the machine(to the point that I hauled my 1000+ pound welder to the repair shop to verify that it was OK). Sometimes the tungsten just wants to dance around doing a fuzzy arc, other times it won't go at all, just wondering.

Here is a video showing poor A/C arc starting (I count 5 seconds until the regular arc is established) with an inverter machine with the operator using pure tungsten on aluminum:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCm5y...ailpage#t=159s

Earlier in the same video the operator makes an instant arc start in DC mode with a sharpened tungsten:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCm5y...tailpage#t=67s

Ideally the arc start will be "instant" even with A/C, but sometimes I think we all live with a brief high-frequency flutter before the normal arc kicks in. For me anything longer than about one second is agony but I am used to always running lanthanated. Usually if you re-start the arc when the tungsten is still warm (especially if its still glowing) it will re-start easier. The machine (especially if the high frequency gap is misadjusted or dirty) can influence the ease of arc starting, as can the welding electrical circuit connections (especially the ground clamp to work contact area). For example you don't want dirty or oxidized surfaces on your ground clamp where it needs to conduct.

The tungsten type (or alloy or metallic "mixture" or composition) can have a huge impact on arc starting. I tried 1/16" 1.5% and 2% lanthanated to 1% zirconiated back to back last weekend, and even with the tips prepped the same (both sharp, or both balled, same way) I found the zirconiated was always hard to start and lanthanated always relatively easy. Pure may be even harder to start than zirconiated (or maybe equally as hard) from what I understand. Generally a non-balled, "sharper", longer tapered tip preparation will get the tip up to working temperature more quickly and also allow the arc to start easier. Arc starting in DC is a lot easier than in AC mode too. Also if you try to start without enough current, that can make it hard or even impossible to get through the starting phase too. For example, with my Super200P I can "try" to start an A/C arc with 1 amp, but it is not likely to be successful.

Now a transformer machine running continuous high frequency may run differently than an inverter in AC mode, because it has a different operation than an inverter, (which switches off the high frequency as it switches on the normal AC welding current.) A transformer power source switches off high frequency arc starting only in DC mode. A transformer keeps HF going in AC to "stabilize" the arc.

When everything is working right with an inverter welding setup, the normal welding arc will just immediately start (and on DC its completely quiet.) The high frequency sometimes doesn't even seem to happen at all. You can't get any better arc starting than that.

PS - I hear helium makes for more difficult arc starts than argon also.

[sportbike]

jakeru,
From your wide variety of posts, you seem to do a mixed bag of welding projects, and obviously use an everlast machine. Do you have a favorite for steel / stainless and a favorite for Aluminum?

Do you use the lanthanated for most all of your welding then? Have you tried ceriated?

It seems that the welding world, like most others, has its share of gimmicks. I guess if there is a market, products will come out of teh woodwork.

John

[Timberwolf]

damn I wish my 256 went down to 1 amp. The lowest it goes is i think 8 on D/C and 27 on A/C

[jakeru]

John, I haven't really done enough testing to really be confident I have chosen a "favorite" yet, but I can certainly tell you what I have been and currently am doing.

I started off using 1.5% lanthanated for everything. I skipped pure, (never heard anything good about it,) and skipped thoriated, (figured I'd not worry about any radioactive safety hazards IE: grinding dust) and just focused on the newer, safer, better products available.

I generally do all my welding (both AC and DC) with a solid (not melted / balled) tungsten tip. I usually don't go too high on EP% balance (20%-35% or so) in A/C mode, to keep the torch cool and the tip from balling, and often find benefit in the focused heat and deeper penetration, and narrower heat affected zone. It works well mechanically, welding as thick as 3/8"+ aluminum with just a 3/32" tungsten @ 200 amps, 20-25% AC balance, with lots of duty cycle. In fact I've got some 1/8" tungstens, but very seldom use them.

I am set up with .040", 1/16", 3/32", and 1/8" tungstens in 1.5% lanthanated, but am gradually switching them out with 2% lanthanated as I use them up. I am not sure I can tell any difference yet between the two, but am hoping for an improvement in the tip lasting longer without forming "multiple protrusions". I just live with the expected tip degradation, and expect to swap on a sharp one when I get to a stopping point, or when its needed. I keep the grinder nearby and try to keep tips sharp and ready to go on important jobs. With more time I should be able to tell if 1.5 - 2% lanthanated makes any difference.

I tested the zirconiated and found stark differences to the lanthanted, as I mentioned in previous post. I have a stick of ceriated I got to try and have used it before but not much, so far it seems pretty similar to lanthanated. Supposedly one is easier starting when they are both freshly ground, and the other is easier starting after its been used. At least in theory.

I did do some experimentation with using higher EP%, and welding in A/C mode with a balled (molten while welding) tip, but its kind of a complicated topic. To make a long story short - balled tip = can't concentrate the heat. You can weld nice diffused beads though, which mask a lot of torch and filler rod jitters / inconsistencies which can make a really nice "stack of dimes" aesthetic.

If you're doing build-up operation, the wide, diffused heat setting is often advantageous. There may be aesthetic reasons as well to ball the tip or otherwise try to diffuse the heat. But if you're joining metals, the deep penetrating, narrow focused heat setting is usually best. Sometimes focused heat can be good for build-up also. The arc distance can have a big impact on heat focus vs. diffusion as well.

If I had a watercooled TIG torch, and a more powerful machine, I'd probably be inclined to use the balled tip, higher EP%, more diffused heat setting more often than I have. But I've just got 200 amps and an aircooled torch. The focused heat setting expands its aluminum thickness capacity substantially which is really useful for me.

Here are some of the test beads I did when I was playing with zirconiated vs lanthanated. I made a lot more of them, (some really nice looking) that I covered up by running beads either next to them or on top of them, or on the back side of by the way. I didn't do these to take pictures of I did it to learn, but you can see there is probably a 4x difference in bead width between the widest to the narrowest bead. (It is all 1/16" thick material and I was using 1/16" tungstens.) It was a lot of fun and I look forward to putting some "wide aesthetic" beads on aluminum to work here soon.

The balled tip might have advantages with more readily vaporizing (burning off) most contamination.

I do a variety of welding jobs as part of a side welding business I've got. It tends to be a lot of repair work, but also a little bit of new fabrication work so it's a nice mix, focused on primarily TIG welding. It's a lot of fun and very challenging. There are flakes out there I have to deal with in the course of doing business, but I also get some really nice people to do business with. I especially value repeat customers who don't quibble with the bill.

[Ray]

Jake, you have probably hit the nail on the head, I’m not good at post flow, not sure why, but I do indeed have a tendency to pull the torch away to quickly. I think I may have mentioned that before somewhere on here. Next time I weld I’ll try to pay attention, I’ve had others say the same thing though, so maybe inherent to the tungsten and not just my lack of patience, hard to say.
Wookie, I would also, there maybe something out there In cyberspace, it’s been a long time since anything I’ve welded has been x-rayed, but with Hf start I think some transfer is inevitable however, even with Zirconiated tungsten.

[Wookie]

Jake, you have probably hit the nail on the head, I’m not good at post flow, not sure why, but I do indeed have a tendency to pull the torch away to quickly. I think I may have mentioned that before somewhere on here. Next time I weld I’ll try to pay attention, I’ve had others say the same thing though, so maybe inherent to the tungsten and not just my lack of patience, hard to say.
Wookie, I would also, there maybe something out there In cyberspace, it’s been a long time since anything I’ve welded has been x-rayed, but with Hf start I think some transfer is inevitable however, even with Zirconiated tungsten.

so your saying with HF start its inevitable ... i would have to disagree with you on that
with scratch start yes but not HF start

[Timberwolf]

I got some samples from DGP of tri mix, 2% lanth and the cryo-t. The cryo-t is now one of my favorites. It starts easier than any of the other ones out there and seems to hold up to higher amps better than the others. Not a fan on the tri-mix with starts but at higher amps seemed to hold up ok. The 2% lanth is also nice and I would recommend either. From what I've heard though the hybrid stuff is just hype...never tried it for myself.

[Ray]

so your saying with HF start its inevitable ... i would have to disagree with you on that
with scratch start yes but not HF start

One would think so, but actually there is transfer of material during Hf start, if you’ve noticed what looks like little comet trails or a meteor storm when starting is actually tungsten being ripped from the electrode and it ends up in the weld and show on an x-ray as tiny bright spots on the film. Lift start is actually the cleanest start. That is why it’s an option on some of our high end welders (Lift Start).
My experience has been the inspectors are more worried about inclusions in the weld more so than microscopic contamination, what we used to call porosity. But perhaps someone currently working on boilers and such give us some current procedures.
It looks like the NRC is specifying submerged arc for reactor vessels now. But still Tig on high pressure pipe.

[geezer]

Not impressed, they tell you it will do everything including making your dinner plates come out of the dishwasher shiney and new. They don't tell you the composition of the materials and the proven benifits etc. To me it's all hype and no substance other than thier word on how great it is. They claim it is to move away from radio active tungsten but the reality is rare earths are expensive and any blend will reduce thier costs. I'll pass on this flavor of the month tungsten until it has been out there and proven by people who use it,

[performance]

Tungsten has been around a long time. At this point it is very much like building a better mousetrap. Thoriated works and works well in our units...The best starting in my opinion...Its OK to go exotic if you have the time and money to waste. But when thoriated works well with such minimal risk, it is still in my opinion the best, and most economical choice. IF I were to change, I'd just go with the 1.5% lanthanated. Miller pushes Ceriated highly. But I haven't seen ANY evidence presented that it is significantly, if any, better than thoriated or lanthanated.

[Tritium]

Jody over at weldingtipsandtricks.com did some testing that seemed to indicate that 2% lanthinated was a good all around tungsten.

Thurmond