MTS 200--Some Comparisons with Thermal Arce 181i Fabricator

[jackw19]

Pls note comments from Everlast support personnel in the prior thread "MTS 200--Some First Impressions". In these comments it is stated that the MTS 200 is built in the same factory where the Thermal Arc 181i is produced. Looking at pictures of the 181i shows obvious similarities to the Everlast MTS welders. Thus it is interesting to compare these Thermal Arc and Everlast multi-process MIG, TIG and stick machines. (BTW, I don't have a 181i. What I've learned comes from online information at Thermal Arc's website.)

181i Price: The 181i is currently being offered by online vendors for as low as $805 or $815 including shipping. Everlast prices can be found on the company's website and on eBay listings.

181i MIG Duty Cycle and Rated Amps: 180A/23V @20% Duty Cycle, 113A/19.7V @60%. (Note this machine has Fan On Demand, Source: product operator manual)

Compare with MTS 200 (MIG & TIG): 200A@25%, 115A@60% (No Fan on Demand; Source: Everlast website)

Compare with MTS 160 (MIG & TIG): 160A@30%, 115A@60% (No Fan on Demand; Source: Everlast website)

Remote Control: 181i has a front-panel, 8-pin DINSE remote connector that can be used for both MIG and TIG processes, including remote amperage control in TIG mode.

The claimed duty cycles of the 181i vs MTS 160 and 200 can't be directly compared at full amperage. At 60%, however, I fail to see a material difference--I think this obviates the claim that Fan-On_Demand necessarily degrades duty cycle. I think not including FOD is more a matter of cost saving and possibly a way of reducing warranty and return costs.

MIG Drive Roll System: The Everlast MTS 200 features an all-plastic frame setup. It may be great, glass-filled plastic. I don't know; time will tell. The 181i appears, from the manual diagrams, to contain at least some metal components, e.g. the pressure bar that holds the top roller. The remainder of the 181i frame may be a die-casting, or it may be plastic. I can't tell from the manual. I wonder how much more it would have cost to include a metal drive-roll frame on the MTS units. Presumably it's just the cost of the metal, can't be that much more expensive to make plastic injection molding dies vs die-casting tooling. Both units have the same tiny drive rolls.

Wire Roll Size: The 181i will take 4" diameter rolls, the MTS 200 will not. Pls see discussion in previous thread. I like the possibility of using smaller rolls so I can always be using fresh wire. Everlast technical support doesn't think this is particularly important. But there's also another reason. Suppose you want to try out some new wire--say you want to use that portable multi-process machine on a windy day with a new brand of flux core. If you've got to buy a 10 lb roll, that's about $75--and maybe the new brand is no good ... Or maybe you want to try titanium welding. (Yes; its a DC MIG process; check any modern welding text.) Do you really want to buy the big roll for a test?

The Thermal Arc 181i product manual is an excellent manual, obviously written by a native speaker of English or by a non-native speaker with extensive experience in technical writing. It is a masterpiece of clarity. I honestly can't say the same about the Everlast manual--in my opinion, it's a typical import-tool effort included with the product to satisfy the demands of the legal department.

Curious owners may want to look at the 181i schematic that show front panel potentiometer controls form current. Everlast technical support claim (see again prior thread cited above) that the MTS 200 unit has "digital encoder" control. This would be curious a curious difference in two units so obviously similar, and what would seem to be an unnecessary expense. The schematics of the two units can't be directly compared because detailed schematics of the control system are not provided in the Everlast online documentation. The experienced might want to consider that the remote control locations and pinouts for the 181i on PCB4, as shown in the Thermal Arc product manual, may provide route to remote control for the MTS 200. Of course, if the MTS 200 does in fact have front-panel potentiometer amperage control, that would be another obvious entry point.

There is always the possibility also of implementing a TIG remote system based on a simple mechanical flexible control cable to turn the amps knob. Presumably this wouldn't void the product warranty, and in an event could be installed and removed without modifying the machine itself in any way.

Note that Everlast appears to provide more generous warranty provisions with its machines. Whether or not this is a real, as opposed to paper, advantage would come down to the attitude and commitment to customer service of the two companies, who bears shipping costs, extent of dealer network and whether machines can be delivered to dealers for repair, etc.

Everlast supplies a Traffifab (I think) TIG torch in addition to a MIG torch with its MTS machines plus a no-name, no-county of manufacture regulator. Thermal Arc, it appears, includes only a MIG torch, altho it is a Tweco.

My take: I think the the 181i is definitely a better buy at street prices than the MTS 160. The comparison with the MTS 200 may be a wash.

[sportbike]

What is the purpose of this thread?
You seem to be big on doing research, yet in the other thread, all you do is bash the product.
Go ahead and buy the Thermal Arc unit if you feel it is a better item.

Everyone has their own reasoning behind buying one product or another. I am sure the folks at Everlast understand this and also understand your right to choose.

Why post this thread after you bought the welder? If you wanted a different welder, why not just buy that one up front. I am sure Lincoln or Miller would be happy to sell you a welder.

[performance]

The MTS 200 is SYNERGIC. That blows the whole matter right there. The MTS manual is online. It wasn't written by the Chinese I assure you. If you are referring to the box manual, then yes it is written by the Chinese. Ours is found here. http://www.everlastgenerators.com/do...0160%20200.pdf

I have perused the TA manual, and noticed a lot of technical mistakes regarding the welder. I'll let them deal with that and figure out what theirs are. A LOT of compliments have been made about ours.
The 181 and the 160 are more on the same level but still very different. The 181 doesn't have a built in solenoid torch control... A major difference! And the cost of the torches add a lot to the price from TA. TA uses Tweco because it owns tweco...It doesn't mean its a better torch. Trafimet is way more comfortable, and is just as durable and more flexible that the tweco.
The drive unit the 181 has is basically the same as our I MIG series...we've seen better performance from the mts one, particularly on thinner wire. I've reviewed the 181 personally. I can tell you there are better features in ours overall.

The duty cycle we report is typically low on our units. TA is different. The torch name is TRAFIMET....one of the world's largest torch makers, and infinitely nicer than the tweco. We also use an easier to use connector.

Forgive me if I am wrong...but There is a lot of malcontent personality coming from your posts. Perhaps this is the type of person you are. I don't know. You are bent on trying to "teach " us something it seems.
I dare say we have a lot more knowledge and capability behind us than you do. You are in essence trying to be a Monday morning quarterback, nothing more.

I'd say if you are not satisfied with the unit, return it before your 30 days are up take your 10% hit plus shipping and go buy the 181. You'll see what I mean when you get it. I've looked at it myself. Yes it has a foot pedal. So? This type of lift start tig doesn't need a foot pedal...An experienced welder knows this. And I have heard complaints about this point with TA already...I'll let you figure it out. You come in with a "know it all" attitude here. We have worked several years with this machine and factory and weighed many options on our units. We listen to our customers, but this is far beyond helpful suggestion. It smacks of derision and arrogance.

If you are considering further antagonistic posts don't bother. You will be banned. If you want to respond, and take our side into consideration, fine. No harm in that, but the tone with which you are posting now is filled with animosity, and at that its over a moot issue. I could understand if there was a problem with the unit...There is NOT. There are glaring flaws in your technical understanding of this product and welding in general...Perhaps that's why you didn't receive more replies? Its hard to take someone seriously that makes such dogmatic comments.

[jackw19]

I don't think you're being fair. Maybe I did get a little carried away about your product manual--OK. Let me say I think it could be improved. I gave an example of what I consider to be a better written manual for a similar product. And maybe I shouldn't have said in a previous post that your cooling system engineer didn't ace fluid dynamics--maybe he did. Sorry. I don't think the MTS-200 has a particularly quiet cooling system.

I assume you want feedback from your customers, or you wouldn't be operating this forum. If you do want honest feedback, you've got accept that sometimes not all feedback is positive. On the other hand, I left some negative feedback, too. Pls see positive comments in my posts, for example the opening comments of my first thread.

So in the interest of improving Everlast products and customer experience, let's not shout and let's not call names. But, by the way, you have called me names i) malconent, ii) Monday-morning quarterback, iii) and, I think, techno-something. Well, maybe I am a techno-something. I have a University of California undergraduate math degree and a Caltech Ph.D. (you know my name, check w/ the registrars if you don't believe me.)

I made the detailed comparison between the Thermal Arc unit and the MTS machines in part because you suggested in responses to my posts that fan on demand degrades duty cycle. I'm not trying to be antagonistic--I think this is a legitimate technical issue worthy of discussion in a forum of this type. The 181i vs MTS offers an excellent natural experiment concerning this question. Here are two very similar (built in the same factory) inverter multi-process machines, one with FOD and one without. Yet when you look at the rated duty of the machines, they appear to very similar. All I'm saying is , where's the big duty-cycle hit caused by FOD? (My underlying assumption here is that the published duty cycle figures are accurate--I assume they are for a variety of legal reasons.)

I also asked in a previous post about potentiometer control of amperage in the MTS machine, and ways to implement TIG-mode remote amperage control. As I stated there, and state here again, I _understand_ that user modifications to a machine would void its warranty. No one expects a seller to warrant a machine when its been modified outside of seller's control. If you don't want to discuss user-modifications to your machines for liability or any other reason, that's your business and I have no problem with that. If you don't even want the subject brought up for discussion by forum members--well, it is your forum. The reason I brought up this question again and made some comparisons with the 181i is that Everlast technical support said the MTS-200 front panel amperage control isn't potentiometer-based, but rather relies on digital encoders. I find this interesting for a couple reasons. I actually have some real-world experience with encoders, and I don't think this would be my first choice to implement amperage control--mainly for cost reasons. I'm not trying to be antagonistic--I think this is a reasonable topic of discussion in this kind of forum. Can you comment again on how the amperage control is setup on the MTS 200 and why digital encoders were used? If this is a trade secret, or you don't want to discuss it, OK. Again comparing with the apparently similar 181i, its documentation states the amps controller is a pot. You guys may have decided to go a different route, I'm curious why.

Let me ask a final question. Is there a simple way you know of to use small diameter wire rolls on the MTS-200? Please, you don't need to say I'm not much of a welder, there's no need for such a feature, etc. I like the machine, OK? I'd like to use small rolls now and then--it'd make me like the machine even more. Is there a straightforward modification that would let me do this?

So ban me if you want--I think you're being a little sensitive. You guys must be used to some rough and tumble--I don't think you're in an easy business. If you do decide on such a ban, pls advise snail mail addresses for technical questions, etc.

[performance]

Jack,
By the fact that another customer picked up on your posts and was annoyed should shout volumes to you... There is very little "interest" in improving Everlast products displayed in your posts.

By the many comments you have made, tells me that your welding experience is limited...therefore your input has limited value and appreciation. We can listen, but when you put it out there like that, as was observed by another customer, and taken the same way as I took it, there is very little in the way of helpful criticism offered...More cocksuredness than anything. When people start citing PhD's, people start tuning out, because people usually are trying to prove something or impress someone (or themselves). Let your experience speak for you. If you have to cite your educational background, in lieu of experience, then your education has done you very little good. It is definitely, at the least, uncool and a little immature to do so. Shall we call you Dr. Jack as well? You may think its name calling, but its simply how I and apparently at least one other have interpreted your actions.

Our product was out on the Market over a year before Thermal Arc introduced their product. We were not and are not copying them. We worked with the factory to get what WE wanted, not to try to piggyback sales off another product sold by another company.

You made the comparison of the things you WANTED to, not a full OR detailed comparison. Again, this is a point of misinformation you have made. The best and longest lived welders have full time fans. And you haven't heard anything yet. Go crank up a Lincoln Tombstone then come back and tell me the same thing. Or any of MIller's equivalent migs....Oh, wait, they don't have any, they are all transformers with low duty cycle, and high weights...But when their transformer fans do run, they make up for the noise.

But as far as the unit goes, it IS a digital encoder, and it is a microprocessor controlled machine. ANYONE that has actually used a Pot vs. Encoder can tell the difference right away...this is what gives your whole comment low marks as far as indicating you know what you are talking about. You concentrate on one thing, and then forget the whole feature of the machine is concentrated around its synergic capability and digitally controlled feature. As my grandmother says, "You're straining at a gnat while swallowing a fly."

[zoama]

My advise for Mr jackw19 is to use the machine for a month or so, then come back and share your opinion... give it a chance, you'll probably grow to love it.

[Ray]

this adaptor works on the 250P, should work on the others.

Ray



you can get it from HTP. or make one.

[performance]

LOL>>>LOL>>>>

Ok RAY YOU JUST GAVE ME A HEART ATTACK LAUGHING!!!

It looks like a toilet paper hanger at first and at a distance. Talk about replies....

[Ray]

LOL>>>LOL>>>>

Ok RAY YOU JUST GAVE ME A HEART ATTACK LAUGHING!!!

It looks like a toilet paper hanger at first and at a distance. Talk about replies....

LOL, it does at first glance.



You know I have a bit of a reputation for red neck engineering.



Hmm, you’re giving me ideas man.

[zoama]

this adaptor works on the 250P, should work on the others.

Ray



you can get it from HTP. or make one.

How does that part allow you to run 1lb or 2lb spools that have a small center hole ? It looks like an adapter to large spools on a machine made for small ones... like my little hobart.

[bobwills]

The colors are just fine. Acually the acual "welding plug" i got from Orschelns, the only plug in the welding section has wire colors marked on the plug and what do you know they are white green and black. So if the only "welding plug" they have is that then i think everlasts wiring is just fine.

[Oleg]

update:


jackw19 called today , after 28days (i think i counted right) he decided that he needs more power.
sending unit back.

[jackw19]

Mark, I don't think the comparisons I made were wrong. I researched the material carefully, and assembled the comparisons carefully. I only mentioned by academic background after you started calling me "malcontent, etc." My intention was to establish some some intellectual credibility in response to suggestions that I was some kind of crazy know-nothing. I see that Everlast tech support has done the same, by mentioning its years of experience, etc. There's nothing wrong with establishing qualifications when having a discussion--doesn't turn me off. I like to hear about peoples backgrounds.

I don't see where any of my comments have been incorrect--if so pls tell me where. Just saying I'm wrong, I've made glaring errors, etc doesn't make it so. What glaring errors?

Potentiometer and Encoders. If the amperage control is digital encoder based OK. That's all I wanted to know. I didn't say a potentiometer was better, all I said was that an encoder was more expensive. That's all. I asked because I was considering replacing it with a foot pedal and that would have been easy to do. Your suggestion that all experienced welders don't need / don't want / don't care about pedals w/ DC TIG on steel simply isn't true. I know several, including my welding teachers and authors of several welding texts. You may feel that way, but not everyone does. And not everyone who doesn't agree with you on this point is wrong. I'll be happy to provide quotes and sources for you.

Smaller rolls. Please, all I want is a simple answer to a politely asked question. Can Everlast technical support assist me in using 4" wire rolls in my MTS-400 machine? If the answer is, "No," then fine; maybe a forum member will have an answer.

Fan-on-Demand. I don't see that any answer to my comparison of fan on demand in MTS and 181i machines has been provided so far. That's fine--but saying I don't know anything about welding isn't an answer. Maybe some welders don't want it, maybe Everlast support doesn't want to comment, that's fine as well. But I think my argument is correct and speaks for itself.

Just for the record--I don't think all potentiometer MIG machines were lacking. I'm not sure--I'll have to check the specs for Millermatic 250 and 251; I'm trying to recall if they had amperage pots.

Lastly, the number of responses to my MTS posts isn't necessarily a measure of interest. I didn't see a lot of MTS posts of any kind on the site. If I've missed them, pls point them to me. I'd like to read them.

[67cudafb]

Wow you think somone with a phd. would be smart enough to do a comparison with other welders before they buy not after, even someone with high school education knows that. As far as color code you think someone as smart as you would read owners manuel before they did anything at all with any piece of equipment. Your post is kinda like closing barn door after the horse got out don't you think? Just my two cents worth. I am confused do you have mts 200 or 400????????????????????????

[Ray]

the big part goes on the spool holder the little spool hangs on the smaller part.

as long as there is room for it,

[sportbike]

Mark, I don't think the comparisons I made were wrong. I researched the material carefully, and assembled the comparisons carefully. I only mentioned by academic background after you started calling me "malcontent, etc." My intention was to establish some some intellectual credibility in response to suggestions that I was some kind of crazy know-nothing. I see that Everlast tech support has done the same, by mentioning its years of experience, etc. There's nothing wrong with establishing qualifications when having a discussion--doesn't turn me off. I like to hear about peoples backgrounds.

I don't see where any of my comments have been incorrect--if so pls tell me where. Just saying I'm wrong, I've made glaring errors, etc doesn't make it so. What glaring errors?

Potentiometer and Encoders. If the amperage control is digital encoder based OK. That's all I wanted to know. I didn't say a potentiometer was better, all I said was that an encoder was more expensive. That's all. I asked because I was considering replacing it with a foot pedal and that would have been easy to do. Your suggestion that all experienced welders don't need / don't want / don't care about pedals w/ DC TIG on steel simply isn't true. I know several, including my welding teachers and authors of several welding texts. You may feel that way, but not everyone does. And not everyone who doesn't agree with you on this point is wrong. I'll be happy to provide quotes and sources for you.

Smaller rolls. Please, all I want is a simple answer to a politely asked question. Can Everlast technical support assist me in using 4" wire rolls in my MTS-400 machine? If the answer is, "No," then fine; maybe a forum member will have an answer.

Fan-on-Demand. I don't see that any answer to my comparison of fan on demand in MTS and 181i machines has been provided so far. That's fine--but saying I don't know anything about welding isn't an answer. Maybe some welders don't want it, maybe Everlast support doesn't want to comment, that's fine as well. But I think my argument is correct and speaks for itself.

Just for the record--I don't think all potentiometer MIG machines were lacking. I'm not sure--I'll have to check the specs for Millermatic 250 and 251; I'm trying to recall if they had amperage pots.

Lastly, the number of responses to my MTS posts isn't necessarily a measure of interest. I didn't see a lot of MTS posts of any kind on the site. If I've missed them, pls point them to me. I'd like to read them.

My comments were mostly leaning towards the oddity of doing all of this research AFTER you already made a purchase. Just doesn't seem like a logical thing to do.

I can assure you, Everlast machines are not suitable for everyone or for every application. The features of the machines seem to be adequate, but some of the other details of teh company and methods of purchase, are bit different as compared to other companies and suppliers. Sometimes going with a bigger company is suitable. That said, for a home user or light commercial, there is not alot out there that compares with Everlast as far as features / performance / cost. There also seem to be some machines geared more toward heavier commercial applications.

Why would you purchase a 480V 3 phase, 400amp machine and then complain that it doesn't use 4" spools of wire? If you are using teh machine to take together a few plant hangers on teh weekend or are you using the machine to do heavy commercial work. 300amps for a gmaw welder is quite alot and will burn threw a little 4 lb spool in no time.

As for your academic standing, don't worry, we won't hold your Ph D against you.

[performance]

The guy has a mts 200, not a 400 but it does have a good bit of power for its size.

[jbirdlebough]

My comments were mostly leaning towards the oddity of doing all of this research AFTER you already made a purchase. Just doesn't seem like a logical thing to do.

I can assure you, Everlast machines are not suitable for everyone or for every application. The features of the machines seem to be adequate, but some of the other details of teh company and methods of purchase, are bit different as compared to other companies and suppliers. Sometimes going with a bigger company is suitable. That said, for a home user or light commercial, there is not alot out there that compares with Everlast as far as features / performance / cost. There also seem to be some machines geared more toward heavier commercial applications.

Why would you purchase a 480V 3 phase, 400amp machine and then complain that it doesn't use 4" spools of wire? If you are using teh machine to take together a few plant hangers on teh weekend or are you using the machine to do heavy commercial work. 300amps for a gmaw welder is quite alot and will burn threw a little 4 lb spool in no time.

As for your academic standing, don't worry, we won't hold your Ph D against you.

Cheers all from Cloudfather@DELL. Dr Jack I liked your comments. Lets talk about pots vs encoders.

Pots are much less expensive, have three or more tapers available, are susceptible to dirt and grime. But generally durable if the housing they are in is mechanically sound.
Encoders are more expensive, are sealed from dirt and grime much better than pots, they are very precise in their increments improving repeatability of settings and have been thermal stability (pots can drift if warm) and are much high precision than Pots.

Functionally they do the same job, they take input from the user and change a parameter on the welder in real time. The detailed method while interesting is irrelevant.

Can you convert, of course. There are multiple vendors of both options. The key is characteristics of the original component must be identical including taper, wattage rating etc.

I can support the 4" as well. In some instances its much easier to work smaller spools.

Enjoyed the discussion.

J B Chief Engineer, Master of Masters HPC and Cloud Computing

PS you must know our neighbors the Flowers Racing Team. World record holders for HD.

[jackw19]

I do have the MTS-200, and I like amps. If I could afford more, I'd buy more. One day I'll have that big machine that can pull the full 100A in the garage.

Cuda--I don't think that's quite the way accidents happen. Have a look at some of the literature about airline crashes, e.g. Emergency: Crisis on the Flight Deck or Air Disaster. Even with very highly trained people and systems that have been refined over a period of decades, accidents happen. People get busy, something a little out of the ordinary happens, a lapse of attention, a rare component failure, a new guy in the other seat--and then what's never supposed to happen, happens.

A situation with customers most of whom who aren't licensed electricians, a power cord in one non-local color code, a plug embossed with instructions in a different and incompatible code, online non-printed documentation, and someone's wife calling, "Honey, will you get the door" -- that's how accidents happen. Standard color codes are designed to reduce the likelihood of this type of situation, and they should be followed. My two cents. Bet you don't get the authors of the National Electrical Code, accident investigators at National Transportation Safety Board or staff engineers at the Consumer Product Safety Commission to disagree.

[performance]

Jack,
I know its Christmas, but here you are mixing your fruit again. You can buy mixed apples and oranges at this time of year, I know, but it doesn't fly in an argument.
You are talking about welders and Airplanes in the same sentence comparing the two. That is not the way. Everything we have says to consult a licensed electrician, even the codes call for that.
If someone is taking it upon themselves to wire a welder, then it is on their OWN hands because their local and national codes, if not their own insurance tells them to.
I suppose you'd complain (as many unversed people have) that we use White, black, and green in our other welders? How many calls have I gotten about using the white as a neutral, and then wanting to know where the other wire was...then getting a half hour lecture about our product not being standard. Enter every other welder in the US that is made....They all use white, black, and green. Neutral is not used in a welder circuit. Red is reserved for a dual phase, or 3 phase welder. Oh, but it should be wired to their house colors..... No, its just that they don't know what is standard and what is not, and they think they know based off their own personal experience.