Everlast competition?

[shiers69]

I just ran across a company called RTech. They have some very similar looking welders to the Everlast line. Maybe it's the UK version of Everlast http://www.r-techwelding.co.uk

[67cudafb]

There units look close but less warranty and cost extra for footpedal. With currency exchange kinda pricey but interesting.

[CGCINC]

Looks like the same platform though.... Interesting!

[performance]

As we have acknowledged here before...Other companies in different countries do use some of the same factories as we do. As we also have stated, we have contracted for exclusivity rights of manufacture in the US and Canada for most of our line...and certainly have unique products that are not shared with any other company worldwide...Just as we have acknowledged the MTS 160 and 200 are built in the same factory as the Thermal Arc 181i fabricator. Our models are unique (though it is similar in many ways) from TA's and we have been selling it here over a year longer here as well. The company mentioned above in the OP do make some of their units in the same factory, to their own specification, and performance demands. I have just completed working up a new panel, and design for the 160STH that will be due out shortly. Other companies may make a similar amp level unit in our factory, but we have our own features and performance specifications that we have for the units as well as our constant contact with the factories through, email, phone calls, video, personal visits and other media... Overall, many of the products are conceived by us and developed jointly with the factory just for our market. The PowerTig 185 is an example of this. We had this model in development just for us in 2009, and was displayed at Fabtech 11-09 well before the Miller unit released a year later of similar size. So is our 250EX. We have a the "low" amp start value on AC and DC that no other country has, even though they may achieve a similar amp output range...as well as our pulse frequency range and AC balance adjustablity. We started working with the factory above in 2008 to develop our own line of product, slowly working into the IGBT product line as you now see it. The unique "power" line was officially released in May 2009. If you were to look inside, you'd find We use much different and heavier internal components...Unique boards and electronic components. They use the same case, and similar accessories but that is pretty much where the likeness ends.

[performance]

CGCINC,
I think Platform would limit itself to same case.

[CGCINC]

CGCINC,
I think Platform would limit itself to same case.

That's what I meant...size and shape are similar.

[Jake98]

blue reminds me of a police state.

[Mike J]

Interesting discussion and its part of a question that I have been itching to ask. Everlast seems to be a sales/marketing/support organization that has outsourced engineering and production to another company. That other company also offers the same service to competitors, which is where it gets interesting. How do you protect your Intellectual Property (IP)? Your unique designs and ideas? Its sounds like the basic welder technology is owned by the factory and provided to all customers, but the unique features/design for Everlast units is owned by Everlast through IP agreements ( likely contained as part of engineering labor contracts), and that combined with territorial protection (i.e. the factory cannot supply similar units to the same geographic area Everlast covers) protects the company.

Kudo's to you guys, nice way to leverage an outsourcing model while still providing service for your "local" customers, and build value in the company due to the IP it owns (if that is the model).

The downside I can see if there is a bit of separation between the design engineers (who know the design and hence the behavior of the equipment down to the last detail) and the Everlast "product managers", whom interface with the factory, request features to be built, tailored from the standard set, and test the units for design and production acceptance. That is why there is sometimes a gap of knowledge, i.e. when a unit behaves a certain way, sometimes the the "factory" (ie. the outsourced design engineer) has to be asked. There is nothing wrong with this, but now that I think I understand how this works, it adds clarity to some of the conversations, especially with new units like the 250EXT.

Its also a good way to build value with the company, which has the customers, market and unique IP. Nice approach!

Cheers,

Mike

[performance]

Mike,
No, it's not exactly like that. We do work technical support to the factory as well as quality control management support. Duncan visits the factory multiple times yearly, about every 8 weeks or so. He is ON the factory floor during production, and working with the design engineers before and after production. We are over here with our technical staff are constantly refining, looking and making changes in component and even circuit designs when needed... None of the product we have has remained the same. We have made changes that are proprietary and cannot be discussed in the forum. But suffice it to say, it makes our units different in every respect. That begs the question: Did you read the post I made? It is a "joint" effort. Duncan has been in the 250 EXT factory as well working with foot pedal design changes. I personally work with feature, panel, and plastic design. Mike and Ray work with circuit design/changes as needed. The new 210EXT plastic exterior was designed by me personally while we are working with the factory ironing out some "use" and circuit issues even now. Yes, we use the chinese to produce it. When the factories make ours, there isn't a mass production line that is running 24-7, where some a fed through a green paint booth while others may be fed through an orange or blue one. Not even close The 250 EXT is produced only for us. We brought the model out. No doubt another country will eventually bring out a model similar to ours but with their own flair. We're fine with that...but it is our unit and will remain so in the US and Canada.

But as we have said, Everlast isn't a Chinese company or name. There is NO factory in China with the name "Everlast" stuck on the top... Just as many companies like Thermal Arc do, they use the Chinese to manufacture their product to their specifications with technical input, and production over seeing done by the US. I'd say our relationship with the factories is very similar to Thermal Arcs and Lincolns and anyone else making product in China.

IP rights typicaly aren't very well protected, but what you have is copies of copies of units. Take our 185 for example. It was built from the ground up. Another factory could come along and make their own version of it...but it won't be a 1 for 1 copy...It will likely delete some circuits or make some changes because they don't understand the operation. Then another factory will see that copy and copy it, unaware of the source unit. But even in this country the competition between the major companies is no different. A Miller factory representative told me that they tear a new Lincoln product down stem to stern the day it comes out, and put their engineers to work building a product just like it, creating work arounds on patented material.

[Mike J]

Thanks Mark!

Yup, got that, and yes I did read your post, but I am an old guy, and forget stuff...did not think you talked about IP :-). The reason I am asking is there are similarities to the software industry (which I am in), including the outsourcing off-shore in order to reduce costs, and protection of IP, which is difficult when it goes offshore.

A good strategy is to accept that the IP will be consumed anyways, and keep inventing. I think that is what you guys are doing, with the constant introduction of new products and improvements. I like that approach, it means progressive products for the customers.

I also really like the openness of your responses - one of the reasons I like the brand and am willing to back that choice up with my own money.

Interesting on the protection of IP rights, I agree that is an issue especially if you use off the shelf parts - and its going to get more interesting when your features become less hardware implemented and more software oriented (like the 250EXT). Now it gets a bit harder to reverse engineer, you have to reverse engineer code - it's possible but more difficult. That can protect you a bit more.

Thanks for taking the time for such a detailed response!

Cheers,

Mike

[67cudafb]

I believe this is what bit Toyota in the ### last year with runaway accelaration, from what I hear they reverse enginered the electric throtle body and code to make it work from American auto manufacters and it bit them in the ###. I could see this happening with knock off welders giving customers fits.Know what you buy buy what you know that would be good reason to stick with EL.

[srp]

If Everlast can choose all of its options, 10 to 90 percent ac balance should be added to all its ac machines. High frequency adjustment is nice but ac balance is way more important to me. And maybe a logarithmic potentiometer in the foot control that would allow the foot control to be pushed down 75% but only be at 50% power and the last 25% of control would control the last 50% of power. This should allow more control when using the foot control on the low end. My Miller foot control from the factory has two 20 cent resisters making it logarithmic.

[hooda]

If Everlast can choose all of its options, 10 to 90 percent ac balance should be added to all its ac machines. High frequency adjustment is nice but ac balance is way more important to me. And maybe a logarithmic potentiometer in the foot control that would allow the foot control to be pushed down 75% but only be at 50% power and the last 25% of control would control the last 50% of power. This should allow more control when using the foot control on the low end. My Miller foot control from the factory has two 20 cent resisters making it logarithmic.

Could you post some pics of the inside of the pedal? I'd like to get a look, and, if possible, "hotrod" one of my pedals to see just how well I can make it work like you described. There's another member who put a higher quality pot in his pedal with great results, the poster don't come to mind, but you could search it.

[srp]

Could you post some pics of the inside of the pedal? I'd like to get a look, and, if possible, "hotrod" one of my pedals to see just how well I can make it work like you described. There's another member who put a higher quality pot in his pedal with great results, the poster don't come to mind, but you could search it.

The pot is a Clarostat C0416339 1k 20 1019 Resistor is CM .1Z E 500V

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/a...iometer004.jpg
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/a...iometer003.jpg
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/a...iometer005.jpg

[performance]

Srp...
We give customers a choice. More range = more money. We offer distinct features with each model. 30-70 is more than adequate. But if a customer desires, they can pay more and get more with the 10-90%...Which the 90% is all but unusable...nothing gained there.

[todmorg]

The pot is a Clarostat C0416339 1k 20 1019 Resistor is CM .1Z E 500V

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/a...iometer004.jpg
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/a...iometer003.jpg
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/a...iometer005.jpg

Those are probably decoupling capacitors, not resistors. It's hard to tell from the photos.

[jakeru]

I'm thinking that those capacitors pictured are there to smooth out the electrical signal noise which would otherwise result from "wiper bounce".

If that is a wirewound potentiometer, it has a wiper inside that contacts different windings inside the potentiometer, as the wiper is rotated. (here is a picture I copped on the interwebs of the guts of one: )

Wirewound pots are known, as the wiper sweeps across the windings, to exhibit "wiper bounce", (where it gives a noisy electrical signal as the wiper skips across the tops of the different windings.)

[srp]

Srp...
We give customers a choice. More range = more money. We offer distinct features with each model. 30-70 is more than adequate. But if a customer desires, they can pay more and get more with the 10-90%...Which the 90% is all but unusable...nothing gained there.

Would going to a 10 to 50 percent ac balance make them cheaper? I know I would never set mine as high as 50%.

We are testing some premium logarithmic potentiometers on Sunday, we did not have them made, just bought some that are close to what we need that were in stock. Getting some with the right amount of rotation is a challenge. I will post more data and pics if they work out. One thing, the big foot control has a 47k pot and the new low profile foot control have a 51.7K pot, we went with a 50K pot for this test.

[performance]

Would going to a 10 to 50 percent ac balance make them cheaper? I know I would never set mine as high as 50%.

We are testing some premium logarithmic potentiometers on Sunday, we did not have them made, just bought some that are close to what we need that were in stock. Getting some with the right amount of rotation is a challenge. I will post more data and pics if they work out. One thing, the big foot control has a 47k pot and the new low profile foot control have a 51.7K pot, we went with a 50K pot for this test.

I've discussed this before from time to time, as we get a new round of guys into the forum.... We have a 10-90% unit available. Making something "cheaper" isn't an issue. We have our price points and features established. This is for good reason. If all the units had the same features, then they'd be no distiniction between them, and one model or two would get crushed. It isn't always about cost of manufacture, but rather about offering additional features for additional price points. Offering additional amperage, is just like offering a larger horsepower engine in the same model car. It doesn't necessarily a lot more to make, but it is where profitabilty increases. We "Set" certain performance features within the line to have certain features and prices just as a car manufacturer offers different package levels. Not everyone will want the top end line of the 250EX and the features that come with it...whether it be the price, or the amount of power, or the extra features. Again, ,30-70% is MORE than sufficient for adjustment. Most transformer TIGS offer less than 40-60 % if any at all.

[srp]

We have three Everlast foot controls, one is the old style with not much variance in control, one is the new style that works perfectly and one new style that loses it variance after about 5 minutes of welding. All of these controls have been adjusted when new so there is no issue with adjustment.

We spent most of the day testing foot controls, we installed a Clarostat potentiometer in the new pedal that had the issue, seller said he thought it was a logarithmic potentiometer. I could not tell by ohming it out.

The new potentiometer had precise control at low amperage. With the panel set at 250, we could weld at 10 amps with the full control and no chance of shutting of the welder until we were ready to stop welding. I am very impressed with Everlast welders with a premium potentiometer, It had much much more control than the good foot pedal I have.

With the foot control at 3/4 pedal, the amperage is about 50% output and the last 1/4 pedal controlled the last 50% output.

The potentiometer had a larger shaft at .250 and had to be cut to length, but the biggest issue was it had to much rotation. Everlast should check into getting some with the correct outside diameter and length with the right rotation that has the same guts as these.

Clarostat
5905-00-869-2
012 43M 50K
625-8840

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/a...iometer007.jpg
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/a...stcontrol2.jpg
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/a...astcontrol.jpg
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/a...astcontol1.jpg

I have one that has not been installed yet if Everlast want to put there hands on one or I could send one that is ready to weld in the pedal for testing if needed.