Project 2 from Hooda. Category: 4) Custom welded Shop tools and improvements:CNC PLAS

[hooda]

Well, the title box wouldn't allow me to finish, but I just started the build of my first of what I hope to be many CNC Plasma tables. This is a smaller, entry level table, designed with a 2' x 3' travel, plus the ability to accommodate full size sheets, due to the unique design of the carriage. The chassis is the main welded component of the assembly. It is made of 2" square tubing with a 1/8" wall thickness. I made the decision that for this first one, I will TIG weld all the joints. I first cut the pieces with my vintage Craftsman horizontal bandsaw. Than spent HOURS on a 4" belt sander squaring the pieces up to length. My goal is to be really precise, +/- 1/32" As a machinist by trade, these seem like wide open tolerances, but lacking the tools of a proper machine shop, getting there has been time consuming, and frustrating. Before I tackle another one of these tables, I will be purchasing an Evolution Rage Saw, as they will cut to an exact, perfectly square, ready to weld length in a few seconds, and with no burr. Having that saw would have saved me EASILY 10 hours off the cut/size/square-up operation. I'm finding that I'm lacking in so many tools that would make this an easy project, but my improvised methods are getting the job done, if not at lightning speed. I've pulled out every c-clamp that I own, along with a good selection of squares, steel rules, etc. I found out right away that my welding table is in desperate need of a flatter top. I priced out a piece of 1/2" steel plate for a new top at $170.00, so it's on the list. The single most important tools that I was fortunate enough to have from my trade school days were a set of heavy angle plates. These plates are super strong and square within .001" so I used them at the base of each square joint to clamp against for tack welding.







I don't have much experience building anything this big, so I'm learning that things MOVE when you tack them!

[hooda]

Below are some more shots of the tack-up process finished. I have started welding, and I have a total of about 140" of welds to do
For this project, I'm using the 250 EX in pedal mode. WP20 torch, 3/32 tungsten with a gas lens, 6 lpm on the argon. I set the max amps at 137, and only had to floor the pedal on occasion. I have started to weld on the bottom joints that will be less visible, allowing me as much practice as possible before I get to the visible joints.

[hooda]

Welcome back, stranger.

Whats the resolution of these pictures when you take them ?

I'm uploading them to photobucket, and then resizing them down to 400 x 400 (for this forum, and 360 x 240 for other forums) before I paste the link into the text. Are they not clear enough? I only know how they appear on my screen, and before I started resizing, they would take up the entire screen, and people were complaining about that. Any suggestions?

As mentioned above I'm starting to weld the joints that are less visible when the table is upright. Here's some joints that I've done tonight.











As far as observations regarding the performance of the 250EX, all I can say is FLAWLESS! This machine is the definition of what perfect arc starts and a smooth arc should be. I made a boo-boo or two (like when you bump the pedal, and the torch ain't quite where you want it yet) and found that the hi-freq. will throw an arc about 2 inches, kinda neat! Point being, the hi-freq. gets the arc going effortlessly, and stops precisely when the arc is going, like it's supposed to, EVERY TIME, without fail. I love this machine!! As far as tungsten goes, I've found out that I prefer 2% lanthanated over everything else, and the only thing I haven't gotten my hands on yet are some US-made (sylvania)2% thoriated that I've heard is better than the others out there, or the 4% thoriated that Diamond Ground offers. But there is definitely a difference between 1.5% anth and 2% lanth. The 1.5% did NOT even come close in performance to the 2%. Luckily, it was a free sample, so I'm not stuck with a 10 pak to burn through. NONE of the LWS around here stocks 2% Lanth, so I have to order it. I'm actually thinking about buying a pile of it and selling it locally.

[everlastsupport]

Hooda,

Let us know where and pricing on the Rage. A lot of people (including me) are watching them, waiting for a good price. I don't think there will be any questions on how you like it. Seems all that have them love them. It will save a ton of time with square clean cuts. My 14" abrasive just ticks me all more and more. I just use the horizontal bandsaw when I can, but takes time too. But waiting on a the bigger project to help justify the purchase.

Which Rage are you looking at?

Oh, don't forget a link to the photobucket for your project.

FYI: I used the Diamond Ground 2% lanthanated electrodes on my 250EX on some aluminum yesterday. Free samples as well. They worked well, 2% is good, the tip will not ball or not much and really good control. I have 10 packs as well from someone on the internet that work great as well. I moved to the blue tips and so far not looking back. Avoiding thoriated for now anyway.

[posixPilot]

Which Rage are you looking at?

Hooda, in case you are looking at the Rage 3 (the compound miter version), you probably want to take a close, hands on look at it before buying. IMHO the slide mechanism flexes too much, so your cuts could easily be off by 1/16" (especially for miter cuts). I've also read that the infeed/outfeed tables are not even with the center table. Even so, I'm still seriously considering it to replace my 12" wood cutting miter saw.

Cheers
Mike

[hooda]

So,
This is the "what you need to do to your EVERLAST plasma cutter BEFORE RUNNING BLADERUNNER", IF you want your warranty honored, technical service, or even acknowledgement that you're a human being from the folks down there. I am in NO way trying to discredit EITHER company. Just that Neither of you has yet taken the time to work TOGETHER to get a few technical questions answered and put to bed, and until that is done, unless you're careful, you'll void the warranty of at least one of the two. Being relatively new to this end of a CNC (but with 20+ years running and programming other CNC machines) I had some technical questions about the hookup between the control unit, and the CNC port on the back of the PP60c. That's when I made a call down to Texas, where the Cand CNC factory is, for technical support. What started out as a simple question regarding divided arc voltage turned into the purchase of a RAV-01 (raw arc voltage card) for $41.50, which he explained was due to the fact that "Them Chinese welders is different", and he just will NOT trust them after more than one incident involving such, although he wouldn't mention EVERLAST specifically as a culprit, he said that they were one of the brands not covered by his warranty, unless this card was installed, along with the DCP-01 (digital current probe) for $85.00 more. Which in itself isn't ALL bad, as the digital current probe is ultra-simple to install, gives the OK to move signal to the control instead of the plasma cutter, and adds functionality to the MACH software, as well as real-time actual cutting amperage on the screen while running. Nifty. Actually, he was a little short with me at first, but I think it was because it was Friday at ten to five, but he stayed on the line with me for about 1/2 hour longer, and became more helpful once I agreed to buy the cards. He actually turned out to be a pretty nice guy. His name is Tom, and I found out that he's VERY busy most of the time, so he prefers that you come to him with questions that are not in the extremely well-written documentation, without looking there first. I have found out that 99.9% of the info needed to successfully install and set up this system is in their manuals, WITH illustrations AND photos AND schematics. ALL written in plain AMERICAN ENGLISH and easy to understand. The cards came the following Tuesday, and the following posts will be a rundown of the install. If you don't have at least SOME electronics experience, I would NOT recommend that you attempt this install, but then again, I wouldn't advise that you build your own CNC table, Either

[hooda]

Hooda,

Let us know where and pricing on the Rage. A lot of people (including me) are watching them, waiting for a good price. I don't think there will be any questions on how you like it. Seems all that have them love them. It will save a ton of time with square clean cuts. My 14" abrasive just ticks me all more and more. I just use the horizontal bandsaw when I can, but takes time too. But waiting on a the bigger project to help justify the purchase.

Which Rage are you looking at?

Oh, don't forget a link to the photobucket for your project.

FYI: I used the Diamond Ground 2% lanthanated electrodes on my 250EX on some aluminum yesterday. Free samples as well. They worked well, 2% is good, the tip will not ball or not much and really good control. I have 10 packs as well from someone on the internet that work great as well. I moved to the blue tips and so far not looking back. Avoiding thoriated for now anyway.

Hooda, in case you are looking at the Rage 3 (the compound miter version), you probably want to take a close, hands on look at it before buying. IMHO the slide mechanism flexes too much, so your cuts could easily be off by 1/16" (especially for miter cuts). I've also read that the infeed/outfeed tables are not even with the center table. Even so, I'm still seriously considering it to replace my 12" wood cutting miter saw.

Cheers
Mike

The Rage seems to be the Rage (pun FULLY intended) these days. I'm looking at the cheapest model, which I saw come up on Amazon as a REFURB unit only one time for $275.00, But the same unit at the LWS was $332.00. Then I heard that the LWS has 3 in for returns that I may get a good deal on. HUH? That has me truly concerned, as they are a LOCAL seller, so 3 units coming back is a big percentage of their sales. I'm going to get to the bottom of why customers are returning them in the first place, price be dmned, if it's because of cut quality, then the deal is OFF. I was aiming at the cheapest unit not just to save $100.00, but also because of what you mentioned, Mike. The $100.00 more for a slide mechanism with excessive flex would be a deal breaker for me, because then it's just another piece of equipment that's a "compromise" and I'm fighting with to get where I want. Worst comes to worst, I'll go for the Big Milwaukee and fork out the extra $200.00. Well worth it, even if it only does simple miters, if I get PERFECT cuts. I noticed this link http://www.buyweld.com/fury2.html for $178.00 it seems too good to be true, but if you read the description, it comes with a 36 tooth blade, and the steel cutting blades offered (for $96.00 more) start at 66 teeth. I'm guessing it comes with this blade http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-FURY...326971&sr=1-15. But it does not specify.

As far as tungsten, I ordered 3/32, 2% lanth off ebay too, and to my pleasant surprise, it was from diamond ground products, even though the listing didn't specify. Blue tip seems to be the shizz. And I'm switching back and forth between the lanth and thoriated (I just sharpen 10-15 at a time and use them interchangably) but the more I use the blue, the more I look at this as an exercise to get rid of my thoriated tungsten and replace it with 2% Lanth altogether. I'll save a few thoriated just in case I run into trouble that nothing will resolve. To get into the inside corners, I pull the electrode out a good distance, and the arc still seems to "find" the tip right from the get-go. I call that pretty good control.

[everlastsupport]

As far as tungsten, I ordered 3/32, 2% lanth off ebay too, and to my pleasant surprise, it was from diamond ground products, even though the listing didn't specify. Blue tip seems to be the shizz. And I'm switching back and forth between the lanth and thoriated (I just sharpen 10-15 at a time and use them interchangably) but the more I use the blue, the more I look at this as an exercise to get rid of my thoriated tungsten and replace it with 2% Lanth altogether. I'll save a few thoriated just in case I run into trouble that nothing will resolve. To get into the inside corners, I pull the electrode out a good distance, and the arc still seems to "find" the tip right from the get-go. I call that pretty good control.

Yea, 2% lanth, for me is a lit better thant 2% thoriated. But you can find the latter local. I have a couple packs left I will guy a buddy north of me when I see him next. Was keeping them for spare and realized I have plenty of the lanth and will just keep them stocked up.
They last a bit longer for me as well. And my tip do not telling ball up on them.

On the saw. I know I have heard about cheap made, but that is something people with a welder should fear (unless it is made of plastic hahaha). $325 was best I found last check. I want to put my hands on one local first. If you get one let me know what you think and well it cuts, but there are some good reviews.

[hooda]

HI! Due to the time it takes to generate these posts (I'm a slow typer, but like to get the wording right so folks can understand) This will be broken down into multiple posts. Maybe I should get that Dragon voice recognition software-If anyone uses it, please speak up, I need to know if it's worth it. Anyway, The RAV card comes mounted to a plastic base, great idea as it protects it and makes for an easy install.



The instructions for the card say to mount it at least 2 inches from any other electronic components insidse the machine. On the PP60c, all I had to do is make a little mounting bracket, and I was in business. Good luck on others, I have no idea what the inside of any other plasma cutter looks like. So, I made the bracket out of a piece of 1/8" aluminum (DARN, no welding needed!)



Sawed it with my 12 volt Milwaukee Hackzall, Bent a 90 at one end, drilled clearance and mounting holes for the card, then mounted the assembly on the front panel of the machine, using that 3M mounting tape. I was going to epoxy the bracket in place, than I thought, Airplane companies are using this stuff to fasten skins to wings these days, so I'm confident it's up to the task.





Below are some shots of the card in place from a top and bottom view.





You will notice in the bottom view, the wires are already hooked up, next post will show the rest of the install. Please bear with me on these images, as I use photobucket, and they are messing around with it, so I have some tweaking to do to ensure I don't have postage stamp sized images followed by poster size.

[hooda]

So, I'm on a tite schedule today, but I wanted to get this thread back in the public eye as I near completion of the project. The whole purpose of this project is to heighten the buying public's awareness of the suitability of the PP60c for CNC plasma table use, which is what it was DESIGNED for. I have encountered SO MUCH resistance along the way, from others, including my hardware suppliers, and I want this table to prove the point that this is a good-no GREAT unit for this purpose. Such was this resistance that the guys I bought the controller and motor setup from said that they would NOT honor any warranty unless I installed a raw arc voltage card inside the machine. Apparently, they had a controller grenade from what I believe was another brand (starts with a L), so they decided unless it was a "biggie" they wouldn't support it unless they actually got a unit in-house to check it out and confirm that the signals are correct for theirselves. The next post will have the pics of how I installed the card. I was able to do so WITHOUT cutting into or soldering ANY of the internal components of the PP60c, so there shouldn't be any trouble there. I'll try to get some pics so you can see where I'm at. I have everything loaded, set, and ready to go, except the 2 wires for the floating torch head. The next step is to fill the table with water, and start making test cuts and get this thing RUNNING! You will notice that the chassis is currently in raw steel. I had the EVERLAST green paint color-matched, and have a gallon of it. As soon as I get EVERYTHING completely turnkey, I will disassemble the unit, sandblast it, and paint it to match! More later.

[DaveO]

Looking good, Hooda, glad to have you back and glad to hear this is coming together. I'm looking forward to seeing more pics.

BTW When I saw you'd posted I re-read this thread from the start, and noticed Jakeru had found a solution to your bandsaw problem- did his fix apply to your machine too?

[sportbike]

While the Rage or similar may work, they are nowhere near as rigid as a real cold saw.

If you are trying to make a living with tools, where your time is money, you will never be ahead by buying tools that are not made to save time.

I'm not saying the Rage saws aren't nice for a hobbyist or casual user, but if you are serious about making this your livelihood and getting into the metalworking business, you really should be looking at a more industrial level cold saw. WAY more money, but also WAY more saw.

I know you mentioned that you wanted to tig the first one, but really, the GTAW process isn't the right fit for this type of work. Basically no benefits in this case, other than possibly spatter removal (nothing a little anti-spatter wouldn't eliminate). GMAW all the way for this.

Welding some stop blocks to your table for setup would allow you to ditch most of the clamps and save 50% or more on the setup time as well.

First one down, time to start cranking them out :-)

[brad3579]

Hooda
If you get over to the twin cities, let me know. I am just in Lino Lakes.
I have this saw (http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...6857_200326857) from Northern Tool and you can stop by and try it out. If I remember right I paid $209 plus tax including the 72 tooth blade, using a $50 off $250 purchase card. (I think I have a card here you could have)

[SeanMurphy265]

I agree with sportbike you will need a good cold saw. Jet and Grizzly seem to have some nice cold cut saw's if I had more work/need I would invest in one myself. I have looked at the Evolutions and am seriously thinking about one.

If you going to build the same thing's over and over I would look into strong hand's welding table. That would allow you to set up fixtures/jigs to allow you to speed up the process considerably. Not to mention the accuracy that you would have with a nice fixture. Since your a machinist I'd bet you could make some nice fixture's for the strong hand table. Building a plasma table is not easy!!!! I do not have a welding table, and would never attempt another plasma table build without a welding table again! I will probably pick me up a sheet of 1/4" or 3/8" this week for a table. Some of those 3 axis stronghand clamps would save you a ton of time also!

I understand all this stuff is expensive! In your case since your building plasma tables so accuracy is a must. The faster and better you can build them the more you can build, and the more money you can make. It get's easier the more you build something, but you need to be set up to replicate the process exactly the same.

We all have to start somewhere! Kudos to you jumping in there!

[Rodsmachineshop]

you got a welder make one . I am making my own cold saw that way i can make it with adjustable speeds for different saw blades

[hooda]

While the Rage or similar may work, they are nowhere near as rigid as a real cold saw.

If you are trying to make a living with tools, where your time is money, you will never be ahead by buying tools that are not made to save time.

I'm not saying the Rage saws aren't nice for a hobbyist or casual user, but if you are serious about making this your livelihood and getting into the metalworking business, you really should be looking at a more industrial level cold saw. WAY more money, but also WAY more saw.

I know you mentioned that you wanted to tig the first one, but really, the GTAW process isn't the right fit for this type of work. Basically no benefits in this case, other than possibly spatter removal (nothing a little anti-spatter wouldn't eliminate). GMAW all the way for this.

Welding some stop blocks to your table for setup would allow you to ditch most of the clamps and save 50% or more on the setup time as well.

First one down, time to start cranking them out :-)

The main reason that I'm looking at the Rage is affordability. I've worked in enough machine shops to know what a really GOOD cold saw is like (and costs). Assuming that there is indeed a market for my finished product, I will follow every word of your advice (because it's good), but for now, I'm just trying to SURVIVE.

As far as the decision to TIG weld this particular unit, I currently have a ESAB MigMaster 250 that needs a couple hundred bucks worth of general "fixing up" to get it tip-top. I will for sure have this done, and ready before I tackle my next unit. But this afforded me what I'm in serious need for on the TIG front: PRACTICE! There's about 140 linear inches of weld to get the basic chassis welded together. I looked at it as a perfect opportunity to really get to know the 250 EX, and so far, I've accomplished just that. Had I fired up the ESAB, The 250EX would just be sittin in the corner gathering dust, as would my limited TIG welding skills. This had for sure made me a better TIG welder, even if just by a little bit

[jakeru]

Hey hooda - good to hear an update.

I have a bit of time (and interest) lately in getting the ol' craftman metal cutting bandsaw dialed in and figured out. If I make any headway, I'll let you know. I know you've got one just like it, so if it's just a simple matter of setting it up properly to get it to make square cuts, that'd be pretty sweet.

Here are my latest thoughts (completely untested) - I have seen no "good" source as to how to tune the gap between the blade guides. The owner's manual instructions in this regard make no sense to me. I'm pretty sure I have mine set up somewhat "sloppy" - meaning the blade rests kind of angled in between the guides. So, one guide bears the tension of the blade high up, and the other bears the blade tension down low. So as the blade deflects from varying cutting force, it bends the blade sideways somewhat, which makes the blade wander. My thoughts are if the guides were tighter, it would keep the blade more fixed with a range of tension. It seems like a pretty difficult parameter to adjust on this bandsaw though, and I can't think of any easy way to improve that. Maybe it's something where once it's adjusted right, it won't need to be readjusted again though. (At least if you keep the same thickness blade... I'm using .025" since they're commonly available.)

Those are just my preliminary thoughts. And I know I've set my guides up so tight before, that little metal fragments on the side of the blade practically extruded going through the guides. Not a good situation, it was definitely *too* tight. Anyhow, I'll let you know if I make any headway on it. I've tried some cutting in it recently without trying very hard to make the cuts square, with pretty good results. So now I'm thinking maybe using a high feed pressure helped. I don't know.

PS - on the TIG welds, one tip - I think if you ran more current, with a faster travel speed (or even using pulsing) you could input less heat and oxidize the metal less. That may be a moot point for your project (because it's going to get paint over it any way) but if there are any stainless steel parts it will help the way the welds on those look. Try running more amps and a faster travel speed, or using some pulse perhaps (either with machine or manually with the pedal.) Cheers

[Rodsmachineshop]

http://home.vicnet.net.au/~pwguild/i-bndsaw.htm . check this out band saws can be a pain to get to cut straight, my friend had aproblem cutting with his bandsaw ened up the upper and lower wheels was not inline everything he cut was in a slant from top to bottom

[jakeru]

Hey rodsmachine - thanks for the link but, not really applicable. It's a horizontal saw. The blade rollers are also really old style, they are actually oil lubricated solid rollers, not ball bearings like most newer saws. They have these felt "wipers" on the top which have the job of retaining a bit of oil to keep things lubricated. When I first got my saw, one of hte "wipers" was missing and it didn't work at all. Any oil I put in it drained right out and the blade guide was running hot and dry. I ended up making my own wiper out of some felt stock I think I found from an old dremel polishing wheel.

Anyway hooda has the exact same saw so if I can figure it out, I might be able to help him. I think I can set it up so it cuts straight on a certain test cut piece, but then when I use it to cut a different piece, it's not straight. So the problem is, it's not consistent. My theory (that is unproven at this point) is a difference in feed pressure causes the blade to rock in the roller guides either more or less, and causes the inconsistency in cut angle. I believe hooda has encountered the same issue with his.

Edit - I found some pics - this should show the roller setup on this bandsaw. This pic was before I made the missing felt wiper.

[hooda]

OK I'll try to give as much info as I KNOW, bein's how I ain't no electrical engineer. The RAV card specs that the jumpers on the controller be set at 1/7. That leads me to believe that it will give a more precise positioning of the torch as it has more voltage to work with. (just a theoretical guess). As far as the arc ok, The way it was explained is that when configuring MACH and the controller, the Digital Current Probe will now be used to establish arc ok, NOT the plasma cutter arc ok. I found this as hard to fathom, so i went ahead and wired up the arc ok wires per the instructions, as would be done if one did NOT have the DCP. Tom at CandCNC specified that the DCP would handle arc OK, Period. But answer me this, how does the DCP which internally is a ring around the ground cable, just like a hand-held amperage meter, tell when the torch switches from pilot mode to cut mode? This way I have a choice of either using the DCP signal, OR if it doesn't work, I have the PP60c wires there and ready and all it should take to utilize them is a few mouse clicks on one of the config. pages in MACH to switch over. If I call him Tuesday and he says to get those wires out of there (the arc OK wires), I can just clip them at the CNC port, without needing to pull any covers.