Job pricing... help please?

[Trip59]

Ok, so, still getting back up to speed on TIG, joints I've tested so far are strong, good penetration, no undercut or voids, only thing left on steel is to work on the appearance. I am truly amazed how quick it came back to me after 14 years. Aluminum is another animal, still working on it.

That said, word has gotten out. Couple small repairs, now I heard from my neighbor's nephew that one of their friends will be getting in touch to do a rollpan and some front end repairs (body). He also said he knows dozens of folks looking for someone to do repairs and custom fab work. Not really any weld shops around me, mainly trailer places or bike shops, etc. that happen to weld some things.

This looks like it could turn into a steady flow of weekend odd jobs. Last one I did was MIG some tips on an exhaust, I've known the kid forever, we talked about how much the shop wanted ($300) so I told him whatever he thought was fair. Kid gave me $10...

So now I'm drafting up a sign, but need input on rates. I started thinking about Jody's info, dollar a tack and a dollar an inch and $20 to turn the machine on, but how realistic is that in a jobber type situation like this? It doesn't take into account fitup, prep work, etc.

On a related note, I'm going to draft out the sign on the computer, transfer it to a piece of metal and TIG, rather than paint, the text and graphics (once my beads are nice and pretty). I was thinking maybe 309 on steel, then treat it to 'blue' or blacken the steel for contrast. Any better suggestions?

[performance]

Trip,
You should establish a minimum pay. $20.00 is good. But when pricing you should figure by the hour, which shouldn't be as much as your shops around you charge. There are shops around I am sure, in your area, having traveled those roads in the past, and being relatively close to that area myself. I'd suggest starting in that area around 40.00-50.00 an hour. I think you'll find pro shops around 75.00-100.00 an hour. But a decent rule of thumb that I figure on is taking the material cost for a job, and doubling it to get a "liveable" figure. If you are still worried, add 10-15% for covering unexpected and consumables. But again, you have to be pretty good at estimating material needs, and understand minimum qty. amounts in lengths etc. If you need 2 feet, and have to by 20 for a job, consider the full 20 ft part of the material costs. I would not itemize costs like that to a customer, but just lump sum it. When they agree to a total amount rather than an itemized list, the balance of the material in overage that you buy is yours to keep. But you cannot afford to get started by buying a lot of stock material, so this is an honest way to do it. IF the customer wants all the material, let him have it, but usually they will be so glad for a better price and usually understand the minimum purchase issue, so they don't want the overage back to sit around and rust.

[everlastsupport]

Trip,

You need to have a base rate. $20 is fine as long as you get the job done fast (talking weekend side work).

But let them know, material, grinding, cutting is extra. If the job takes 10 minutes, that is $120 per hour and a good thing. People will also tent to nickel and dime you. Had one yesterday, we were OK with the price, then gave a $5 tip. It happens and do not let that get you down. If you're just starting, call it practice with some pay.

Mark makes a good point on buying material, I always go 20' or over what I need, it is a fair way to stock up for future jobs. People normally do not want a 12' stick of 1x1x.125 in the back of their car sticking out a window

Best of luck in the new venture.

Oh, $1 a tack is fine. $1 an inch OK for MIG and TIG. Try it out and see how it works for you.

[fdcmiami]

This looks like it could turn into a steady flow of weekend odd jobs. Last one I did was MIG some tips on an exhaust, I've known the kid forever, we talked about how much the shop wanted ($300) so I told him whatever he thought was fair. Kid gave me $10...

now there's a lesson. what is perceived to be fair by payee and payor will rarely, if ever, be the same number. i find the dollar an inch figure to be nonsense, can't understand why people are still throwing that around. i would say get what you can when you can and be prepared to deal with some real bottom feeders.

[fdcmiami]

So now I'm drafting up a sign, but need input on rates. I started thinking about Jody's info, dollar a tack and a dollar an inch and $20 to turn the machine on, but how realistic is that in a jobber type situation like this? It doesn't take into account fitup, prep work, etc.

dollar an inch comment seems a little harsh, did not mean to offend but i stand by it. you can value welds by the inch in a production setting; for example welding base plates and saddles to columns when there are multiples but even that number will vary according to conditions and equipment.

in your circumstance it all boils down to time and what the market will bear.

[everlastsupport]

If you need something to get in on the ballpark, Jody's stuff is a start, always room to go higher as well.

But, if you know the job, you just figure your time and materials in there. Get what you can because the next guy will beat you out of it (basically a translation of fdcmiami).

[CGCINC]

I have a minimum of $20 for stick and Mig..$30 for Tig. I take it job by job and figure up everything that is involve in the job...welder, material, grinding, painting, time... then quote the job. Most times you can do this in your head pretty fast.

[SeanMurphy265]

I have a $40.00 minimum for mig and stick. It probably sounds harsh, but even with a small simple job that is not much profit. You have to consider the cost of your machines and tools to get the job done. If I had a better setup I might have a $20 or $30 minimum. If I go to Northern tool and purchase shop supplies I spend $50.00 - $60.00 easily! The little stuff adds up quick. I like to purchase material in full lengths, but sometimes I can save a little money and time buying material pre-cut. People think that welding is easy and everyone can do it! They also tell you how many people they know and how many jobs they will bring in. I did a small tig welding job on one of these bulk ice machines that are popping up in parking lots. I welded a 3" piece of aluminum angle that was not welded by the manufacturer. I charged $75.00 which is my minimum charge for mobile welding. For a tig job you better watch your bottom dollar, because you can loose your tail in a hurry! If you did an hour long tig job that was one hour of straight welding, and charged $75.00 per hour for tig welding; you would most likely loose money due to the cost of gas and rods. After you loose your tail a time or two then you learn how to price jobs, and that gives you a starting point to work from. Also after you finish a job its always good to think about how much that job was worth. If you were going to do that same job again what is that job worth to you? I probably would not have touched those exhaust tips for under $40 - $50.00.

[Rambozo]

...it all boils down to time and what the market will bear.

And sometimes the market can be a real bear.

I used to work for a guy who said that doing a bid was, half sizing up the job, and half sizing up the customer. He was good at it and I'm not. But I did learn enough to spot some of the ones you don't want to do work for.

[fdcmiami]

And sometimes the market can be a real bear.

I used to work for a guy who said that doing a bid was, half sizing up the job, and half sizing up the customer. He was good at it and I'm not. But I did learn enough to spot some of the ones you don't want to do work for.

don't be looking for much if your customer base pays with cash or personal checks (i wouldn't take one). in most, but not all, those are not the customers you want to develop. i'm glad i don't have to put up with them any more but i sure have in the past.

[cbmkr]

Welcome to the world of the Self Employed and Good Luck. Figuring jobs is quite a challenge at times and can be a real pain, My general basis on figuring Job Costs and expenses was to Figure material and Steel paint consumables you use during the process , Multiply that number by 4 and add 25% that will give you a base area to start at. After a couple of jobs you will be able to get a trend on all costs including a burden rate. This is a cost which is in place at all times even if you do not have work to do, this cost can be a real eye opener especially if you are paying any type of Liability insurance , rent ect.
Another practice i learned to do was to do a deep check on who you are working for a lot of times it is a must to file a simple lien on the property you are working. This gives you leverage if you get a bad check and you will, or if the just don't want to pay, big company's like to wait 4-6 weeks.

Do some figuring and try to come up with your burden rate, add to that what you want to make an hour before taxes and see how that goes.
You will find a system on your own and it will work out just be careful what you bid on and how you get your costs.

[Rambozo]

Then there is this method...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...l6Uj7C8#t=130s

[Trip59]

Thanks for the info all... I think this got a bit more complex than I was thinking. This isn't a full time, or even part time, this is an odd-job type thing, filling in my free time to try and supplement my income.

I've been a freelance designer and developer for over a decade, mostly web development but some applications, and I know where I'm at there, costs, expenses, industry standards, the market overall. This is kind of a different thing, as I have nothing to base it on and I'd rather not loose my ### like I did the first few months-year I was freelancing.

I'm also taking in bike work, mostly fixing little things on ricers, but I may have a full custom chopper to do coming up soon. That I can price out, I've done that long enough as well.

Not looking to get rich here, just supplement my income and do something I love (remember, I joined the Navy to do this as a career, it was just the injury that ended that) I have a solid plan now and some great info to work from. There will DEFINITELY be a minimum, as I've watched my gauge go down every day dramatically quicker than my C25 for the MIG.

[SeanMurphy265]

I've put a lot of time and thought into pricing jobs. I've figured out a couple of things that helped. A big shop has a higher over head than guys like us working from home. A big shop has lower material cost because they purchase more than the little guy. The guy working from home has a lower over head but has a higher material cost. To help get a lower material cost I quit giving my name for prices and started using Murphy Welding. When I started doing that my material cost dropped 15-20 percent. You will get it figured out. One thing that will help is getting the large bottles for welding gas. 80 and 125 cf bottles are too expensive for running a business.

[ShaneJackson]

agreed on the welding bottle issue. I am a diy guy and quickly figured out a 125 is NOT the way to go. It cost more to have my 125 tank filled than I did for a 330 (the 330 was from a different vender...)

I am also quickly learning that it cost a lot more to run a tig than it does a mig.... (use the right tool for the job... if you have it)

[sportbike]

agreed on the welding bottle issue. I am a diy guy and quickly figured out a 125 is NOT the way to go. It cost more to have my 125 tank filled than I did for a 330 (the 330 was from a different vender...)

I am also quickly learning that it cost a lot more to run a tig than it does a mig.... (use the right tool for the job... if you have it)

The costs of Tig are multiplied, but mostly based on the time it takes to TIG. Tig is a slower process for most applications. Argon flow is metered on a time basis, so the argon usage is up. The more inportant thing, and this is where most "home business" folks leave out the most, is the cost of your time. The cost of your time starts with the initial contact, all of the planning, setup, driving around to get materials, actual work, then delivery or completion of the sale. The second thing is that people don;t realize what it actually costs in taxes to run a business. Especially additional costs of SS and medicare when you are in business for yourself and have to pay all rather than only paying half. Then insurance, etc.... The whole, "I can make 10% 'profit' on this job" quickly goes away when all of the costs are added up.

Real businesses are much more involved than the casual person thinks.

People will drive 10 miles across town to save 20 cents a gallon on gas. In the process they will burn up a gallon ($3.50) and take a half hour of their time, all to try to save 20 cents on 15 gallons of gas ($4.00 savings on 20 gallons...only $3 on 15 gallons). That is a net savings of 50 cents, not counting wear and tear on the vehicle. I'd bet if you ask them to go out in the parking lot and do nothing for a half hour and in return you will pay them 50 cents, they'd look at you a little funny.

[ShaneJackson]

Yes most people don't know what is involved in running a business. For the past 10 years I have had 4 different businesses.. (no more than 2 at a time.... well 3 for a very short period). It is a LOT of work and a LOT of overhead.

And yea it is funny what people will do to save a buck....

[youngnstudly]

First off, realize that you are in this to make money. No charity work, "buddy discounts", or special treatment for anyone unless you allow it! I used to tell others that my normal rate or fee for doing the task they wanted me to do, was "Normally X"/hour, but I would give them a discount (for being born, having kids, looking intelligent-whatever lame excuse came to mind-LOL). If you give them the impression they're getting a large discount right off the bat, they won't hassle you about your price (no matter how "high" or "low" it actually is). If they are really cheap, be prepared for some humorous replies, logic, and negotiations. Cheap people aren't always the smartest people!

If you're like me, you DO give discounts to friends. Of course the only friends I'm currently searching for are female supermodels, sugar-mommas, lonely widows, wild college coeds, and carefree/generous millionaires and billionaires!

[Trip59]

Thanks Andy I needed a laugh. I've revised my initial thoughts a bit. From now on, anytime I touch anything it's at least a $20. Had the brother of the kid who screwed me on the exhaust deal call last night, 20 minutes after I'd cleaned up and taken a shower. I figured I'd do it on good will, help them out, friend needed a bearing pressed in. Took me a half hour-45 minutes, they brought half the stuff needed, I got it done, but didn't get squat for it. Offered to buy me a beer.

I touch anything, it's $20 minimum, going from there will base the rest of the cost. Everything will now get $X to look at it based on how much time looking at it will take and how many other people can do it . Welding, small jobs will follow Jody's rate, I figured it out and it'll cover argon and consumables and leave some money. Larger jobs will base on that, plus some. Cost of materials will be rounded up to the next full piece, drops I keep, labor will relate to the job. I'm still working out the details, but the list of people I'll do work for 'on faith' has dwindled to less than I can count on one hand. One guy I know will overcompensate me, two of them I call brother, and the other I know will trade me out more than square (he's the electrician wiring my shop for me). Everyone else can pay up. I'm done getting taken.

[youngnstudly]

The HVAC shop I last worked at had a $100 (1 hour) minimum for ANY walk-in customers. The other apprentices and I thought that was nuts and that the company was making a million on those jobs. Then the economy started taking a dive, my foreman was fired, one journeyman was laid off, the only other journeyman in the shop retired (fearing his entire pension would be lost in the stock market), and all the apprentices were sent back into the field except myself and one pre-apprentice that was my helper. Although I knew the shop better than almost everyone else (after spending 90% of my 5 year apprenticeship in that fab shop), there was no way I could run things efficiently as a 4th year apprentice, especially considering I had to train a new guy the trade AND handle foreman tasks which I had never been exposed to. The situation was ridiculous in retrospect, but the company CEO was desperately trying to save the business...Replacing a $55/hour guy with a $25 or $35/hour guy seemed like a good place to start.

The first week in that shop (working like a chicken with my head cut off!), I learned to sternly tell the walk-in customers "The first 5 minutes of my time is free, the next will cost you $100 but I'll throw in 55 additional minutes for no charge after that. It happens to be company policy, it's nothing against you personally and I am simply following orders. If you haven't shopped around at other shops or you think our price is high, I suggest you check around before spending any money here. If you have cash and want something done ASAP, no questions asked, pull up a chair and let's see if we can help you."

I always ended up kicking myself after chatting with a potential customer (at work or otherwise) for 20 minutes, only to have them "milk me" for information and leave with a simple "Thanks, but no thanks." I think that might be the place you are at with things right now too! People can be so frustrating at times! Good luck with everything!