Anyone run cellulosic E6010 electrodes in TIG 210Ext?

[Martine]

Your arc force IS the change in welding amps. As you push in amps go up to compensate for the voltage loss. It does kick in when volts drop. That's exactly why I told you to push in. That's what triggers it. Burying your rod in the puddle will produce surprising results. Running arc force at 0 will produce no change but at a higher set up it would...but ONLY when voltage drops.. I don't know why you would not run a 6010 with an arc force setting turned up. The volt amp curve refers to the this relationship change between volts and amps. But the voltage which you are running your 6010 at tells me that it is correct, and it's likely your technique that is at fault here. Otherwise it should weld. Don't mean to demoralize you, but the readings confirm you are holding too long of an arc length, and not pushing in to activate the arc force control. The soft/buttery/sharp/crisp arc is a subjective idea of what is going on how the arc force control behaves...not something that is truly tangible.

Arc force is a reactive thing that compensates for the amount of "extra" juice is put into the weld when voltage drops below the threshold, reacting to increase the amps proportionately to the voltage loss. The amount of reaction is set by the arc force control. 0-100% isn't twice the amps you have set, but a relative number that caps the amount of arc force control that is put in at any given welding amp. Typically you won't see more than 50 amps or so increase.

I really appreciate your taking the time to explain arc force - especially as my inverter is not an Everlast one.

I had another look at my inverter's arc force in operation; I watched the Amps Out readout whilst laying a bead with a 6013, and, in my case, the welding amps is exactly determined by the % arc force. So with 75A set, the Amps Out reads a rock-solid 75A unless and until arc force kicks in wherein it jumps instantly to 150A at 100% arc force (and 131A at 75% arc force). And then, an instant later it drops back to 75A as the arc force has done its stuff and caused the arc voltage to rise above the threshold (20V?) at which arc force kicks in.

Do you think the next generation of inverters will have true adjustment of the Volt-Amps curve characteristic, where the slope/shape of the curve would be truly adjustable, from what it is now, a vertical line (constant amps) to a genuinely drooping/sloping curve? Arc force (on my inverter) effectively is an instantaneous jump from one vertical, constant-current line to another one to the right and back again a fraction of a second later, whereas to truly mimic the transformer-rectifier, you would have a downward sloping/drooping line where a decrease in arc volts (shorter arc) would bring about a proportional, smooth and lasting increase in current, and not just at one point on the curve (the threshold voltage). At present, on my machine at least, arc force is a pulse of increased current, whereas in an ideal world you'd have a smoothly increasing current over a range of falling voltage. Of course, it may well be that my inverter's arc force circuitry is fairly basic and not representative of arc force in more advanced inverters out there, certainly, that Miller article makes me think that might be the case.

Given that I believe it's only with cellulosics that you want a sloping curve, all other rods are fine with vertical, constant current curves, you wouldn't necessarily need an adjustable volts-amps curve, just a switch to select the cellulosic characteristic.

Once again, many thanks for your kind input.

Martin

[Rambozo]

Thanks for all the testing. It answers some nagging questions I've had. I have been making the transition between transformers and engine driven, to inverters. There are some inverters that have a special 6010 port (Everlast PA200) with different voltage settings, so that feature exists already. While I don't burn a lot of 6010, I am interested in how things work, and how to adjust my technique to get the best from every machine. In the past using a TIG machine to do some stick welding, it was clear that the amp/volt curve was much different, but I just used the foot pedal as a manual arc force control, if you will, and it made it easy, even when I had to deal will a terrible fitup on an existing building.

[performance]

I really appreciate your taking the time to explain arc force - especially as my inverter is not an Everlast one.

I had another look at my inverter's arc force in operation; I watched the Amps Out readout whilst laying a bead with a 6013, and, in my case, the welding amps is exactly determined by the % arc force. So with 75A set, the Amps Out reads a rock-solid 75A unless and until arc force kicks in wherein it jumps instantly to 150A at 100% arc force (and 131A at 75% arc force). And then, an instant later it drops back to 75A as the arc force has done its stuff and caused the arc voltage to rise above the threshold (20V?) at which arc force kicks in.

Do you think the next generation of inverters will have true adjustment of the Volt-Amps curve characteristic, where the slope/shape of the curve would be truly adjustable, from what it is now, a vertical line (constant amps) to a genuinely drooping/sloping curve? Arc force (on my inverter) effectively is an instantaneous jump from one vertical, constant-current line to another one to the right and back again a fraction of a second later, whereas to truly mimic the transformer-rectifier, you would have a downward sloping/drooping line where a decrease in arc volts (shorter arc) would bring about a proportional, smooth and lasting increase in current, and not just at one point on the curve (the threshold voltage). At present, on my machine at least, arc force is a pulse of increased current, whereas in an ideal world you'd have a smoothly increasing current over a range of falling voltage. Of course, it may well be that my inverter's arc force circuitry is fairly basic and not representative of arc force in more advanced inverters out there, certainly, that Miller article makes me think that might be the case.

Given that I believe it's only with cellulosics that you want a sloping curve, all other rods are fine with vertical, constant current curves, you wouldn't necessarily need an adjustable volts-amps curve, just a switch to select the cellulosic characteristic.

Once again, many thanks for your kind input.

Martin

I believe you will find that there is a "reactive" aspect to the arc force...not an all or nothing, once the arc force is engaged. It is your arc length that is probably sending it sky high. As I said the 100% setting you can expect to see more extreme reaction. The more you push in the higher the amperage will go. In fact, if you try to extinguish the arc, on say our PA 200 with the 6010, you will not likely be successful as the amps keep going up and the rod keeps burning even with pressure on it. But if you hold it tight the amps only shoot up moderately. The 210 you have likely does the same thing, but it may be your testing method since every inverter with arc force control (adjustable or not) I have ever run reacts proportionately to the arc length. You are likely intentionally triggering the arc the backing out of it intentionally and getting an "overreaction". I can't be 100% sure about this, but it is what seems to be happening. As far as the droopers are concerned, they are really not in favor anymore, and even now with more modern transformer tech, they have eliminated most of what they can in my understanding. In short the transformer style weld has its drawbacks and people see the benefit of the inverter style weld and are quickly adopting it whereever possible. I will try our 210 out soon on 6010 but I am pretty sure the thing you are talking about is an overreaction on your part to what is happening in the weld. Miller also has an article out that states the difficulty people have "passing" their certs on an inverter if they have never used one before and vice versa. Having used both, and being initially trained on some of the best transformers (ideal arc and dial arc machines) available, I'll choose the inverter. I never had a problem going back and forth though, but since I have an mind that kind of adapts to what is presented, and problems solves on the go, I think it was probably easier for me than most.