Okay, "knowing" what I need with a 250EX, I have a good idea, seemingly now,

[budbd]

Okay, I am a fast learner, and my other thread, I think adding to it is redundant, but as I understand it now, since I decided to have 240Volt 50 amp service installed, is that the wp18 economy "water cooled" torch that comes with it, the 250EX is a mighty fine torch, just that it needs water run through it, which is accomplished by a water hose, or a separate "water cooler", and that what it actually cools is the leads and "not the head itself", and this is likely all used for the extreme upper ranges of tig welding which I won't be into till I iron out all my micro welding needs, of which are refurbishment of small ferrous parts disfigured and made weak by corrosion. I swear, I might take up making small art projects for display in the yard and or later for sale, or for the sake of art itself, my father delved into artistry on canvas, and I have an idea of things to make people think, but ha, who doesn't really have an artist in them, maybe the usual art projects of old items welded together in the shape of something familar.

Technically, I believe I could "in theory" just get an air cooled torch for all those smaller projects dc ferrous arc welding repairs/refurbishments, for now, but that I could "in theory" just go ahead and use the supplied wp18 water cooled torch with water cooling even if it meant using a water hose setup of which I have nearby the building anyway if I can't afford a water cooler, yet, I mean, almost a hundred bucks can go a long way for a water cooler without blowing money unnecessarily on an air cooled torch, though I tried to stop myself years ago from buying unneeded automotive tools and computer equipment, you wouldn't believe the thousands of dollars in fancy engine rebuilding mac tools I still have un used two decades later I've been carting around from place to place. But really, I need to try to budget in a water cooler, on top of everything else, or go "gilligans island" and make me a water hose adapted setup with my water hose outside my spare building, errr bamboo connectors, held together with palm leaves and coconut fibers, errrrr, I mean, home made, haha.. There I will be yelling "SKIPPER, SKIPPER, HELP, SKIPPER!", once I figure out I have to run to the gardening departments or hardware store trying to find a splice or geegaw or such, I just like easy speasy everything is made for each other type setups on anything.

My immediate projects are small and thin ferrous items needing rebuild or building up, damaged from rust, other ferrous item maybe needing restoration for strength and appearance, like filling in rust pits and smoothing out, to be restored. But at least later I'll have a machine strong enough to, who knows, do anything I want with non ferrous material, maybe automotive or custom manufactured items, probably will need a "fancy torch" for that, and I am sure I will eventually have a small collection of torches, like any normal person would have. For all I know, I might use some of my expertise in other areas and some other advantages on my side to someday start up some sort of small time business, maybe even employing others, apart from maybe later being qualified as a tig welder, I mean, I know one local business was bemoaning that there was a lack of qualified aluminum welders to work for him.

Water coolers, its a new one on me, and I understand I could water hose adapt something. Even with a water cooler, the 250 EX, I am still in budget, except my wiring of my shop($1444 estimate, which is $900 more than the estimator thought, maybe before I phoned in worried about 120volt outlets, haha, well anyway), being still in budget cause when I went to local welding shops, they were sort of pushing the big big machines blue and red, of which I was pushed pretty good on a "blue" $2000 machine 110/220 that didn't have any ac frequency adjustment, I'm glad I didn't go to the bank that day for cash, its not what I needed, didn't have enough options. If it weren't for going over budget for wiring for my puny little outbuilding, I'd be feeling real happy right now, I even have a feeling the wiring might get jacked another couple of hundred dollars, I want to use my plasma pilot arc machine on the other end of my "shop" to cut in my back yard by running the leads of the plasma cutter out the door there and into the back yard there(or in a small metal shed I could erect, but not in my outbuilding with plasma cutting or stick arc or mig, now way), and I believe it operates on 110/220volt, meaning 220volt, which is less than 240volt, that little thing cost me over $500, but I want to cut out specific artsy shapes with my plasma cutter, apart from I want to make several trailers or one big one for towing a car or anything else behind my 3/4 ton turbo diesel truck with extreme duty tow package. Hey, I know, I am gonna start buying lottery tickets, just two tickets per week from now on, and work harder at hurryi up and waiting to get my veterans compensation for my debilitating injuries I sustained in military service, apart from the free medical care for them.

[DaveO]

Sounds like you're getting squared away. I saw the new thread to separate topics, but just to "bridge" from the other post: a gas lens provides better shielding gas coverage and allows more tungsten "stick out" so you can see the weld better. This may be very helpful to you if the pieces you rebuild are oddly shaped.

And speaking of shielding gas... hoping you already know this... you'll need a cylinder of pure argon shielding gas for both steel and non-ferrous metals. Some materials *may* require mixing in other gases, but to start pure argon is a requirement.

Sounds like you've got a lot of projects in mind! The 250EX is a stick welder too, so it will come in very handy on a trailer build.

[budbd]

Yeah, thanks, I do know I will need argon, and my "red" tombstone welder is "obsolete" now seemingly, I'll investigate to see for sure, but the "red" tombstone ac/dc stick welder wouldn't be worth selling anyway, cost me $500 in 2004, used it like a total of two hours worth.

Oh, yeah, I definitely want to make a car trailer, or trailers in general for my own use, I have a canopy on my turbo diesel truck I recently purchased, my old truck was open and was easier to haul a refrigerator or such, can't do it with the newer truck.

I remember some guy on youtube, "Mr Offshore Welding", he was talking it up why folks could in theory make money making trailers, but his preferred method would be fleetweld 6010, not a bad idea mind you of course, its a good deep biting stick. I had bought years ago extended leads for the red buzzbox, can't remember if it was fifty or one hundred feet, would be interesting to use the 250 ex for stick. Well, for me right now, I don't have a large covered shop or such, unlike bout five years ago and previous, any trailer would have to be built out in the open, tig welding could be difficult with my coastal winds a lot of times here on the Oregon coast, I'm like just several miles away from the coast.

But yeah, building my own trailers, it costs a lot of money to rent, to buy, and I didn't like what I saw for the money at a local rv sales lot. I live in a newer manufactured home, and it wasn't cheap mind you, but they left the front pull hitches under there, both of them, and considering this home aint going nowhere, errr, unless I got a big piece of land reasonably in this area(fat chance), this place is staying in place, I could re-use those girders for several heavy projects. Besides that, the big movers always have their own stuff when they move things, most folks don't like clutter, and these things are like trailers used to be, they don't leave wheels on them, that is why they are "manufactured homes", but those girders are just lying under there, ready to be made into the front areas of some humongous car or whatever trailers. Ha, maybe I ought to make two massive car trailers, sell one, or both, not sure if I need to pull cars for awhile, unlike in the past, could sell a pair of car trailers to pay for all my welding equipment and a smaller uitility trailer for hauling anything not as heavy as a car. Of course, if you've seen the price of pull behind trailers anywhere, you can see where I am coming from, I aint paying that! Now, my 6.5l chevy turbo diesel can tow like two cars, so much torque and a very large rear reinforced hitch someone put on years ago.

[sportbike]

If you haven't purchased the 250 yet, it sounds like you would be suited just fine with a 200DX.
Unless you are welding thick aluminum, 200 amps is adequate for most of your welding needs. It is also a stick welder and is AC/DC, high freq, and has pulse.

[Poptm]

Is there a question(s) buried somewhere in your posts you are seeking answer(s) to?

[budbd]

Its too late for a 200dx, no I had one near delivery and had it turned around and purchased a 250 EX, it just won't be shipped for maybe another week and a half, cost me an extra fifty bucks as well in shipping for my indecisions, and I aint gonna do another indecision, hense, ha, I don't have "chronic indecision syndrome", I know what I want. Haha, oh sure, once the electrical company sent me a estimate bout at least $500 more than expected, and now I will get a water cooler instead of going gilligins' island makeshift cooler, I am sure the water cooled torches are smaller in weight of the leads. Later on, I might want to repair aluminum so thick it could make your head spin, haha. But yeah, errrr, I am very sure that I could have gotten by with the 200dx and never noticed a need for anything else, I'm not knocking the 200dx, its just too late for that kind of thought. Actually, I hope more for the price of copper and copper wiring to take a nose dive in the next couple weeks, that would help my small hobby shop electrical installation costs!

[performance]

Water cooled torches AREN'T smaller. They are bulkier, and heavier.

[budbd]

Water cooled torches AREN'T smaller. They are bulkier, and heavier.

Now there is information that can help me, by Monday, or Tuesday when I can maybe add to my order, I might need something smaller more nimble as well for all my micro welding repair projects, that won't be welded high in amp useage.

[Rambozo]

Water cooled torches AREN'T smaller. They are bulkier, and heavier.

I would disagree with that amp for amp wise. The cables are larger and bulkier, but compare a WP-17 torch to a WP-20, they both run in the 200-250 amp range but the 20 is a lot smaller. Actually the water cooled power cable is much smaller, but you have two others that you don't have with air cooled, plus a cable cover, and you end up with a pretty large package. Also one plus with water cooled is that they tend not to heat up much, so you can grip the torch much closer to the head even with thin gloves, or none. Not a big deal if you weld for short periods at a time, but for long stretches at high amperage, it's very noticeable.

Everyone has different needs, hence there are so many different torch models. Start with what comes with it for a while and see how things work for the typical jobs you are doing. Then you will know just what you want in a torch that matches your work.

[sportbike]

Water cooled torches AREN'T smaller. They are bulkier, and heavier.

The water cooled torches that are used where I work are half the size of my giant ### wp26 torch.
Any length of time over 125amps or so and the WP26 is literally too hot to hold near the head. I've felt water cooled torches at 275A and they weere pretty much able to be handles with bare hands after 30 minutes of 90% continuous welding. (big 13" diameter tube welded on a rotary positioner.

The little Micro series torches are water cooled and quite a bit smaller than a WP9 air cooled.

[Rambozo]

Doh! I meant to type WP-26 not WP-17.

[performance]

That's because you guys aren't comparing apples to apples (or don't know torches and believe something you read on the internet)

A WP 9 and a WP 20 are the same basic torch. The 9 uses the same cons. The 20 has a slightly larger barrel than the 9 and with 3 separate hoses, 2 full of water, it is more bulky than the 9.

The 17, 18 and 26 are all in the same basic head series as well. The 17 and 26 are both air cooled. Both are lighter and less cumbersome than the 18. both the 17 and 26 can come in a single cable or a split cable/ air hose design. The 18 has a slightly larger barrel in most cases (definitely not smaller) than the 26 and a good bit larger than the 17.

The 20 carries less amps than the 18 about 100 or so. So, naturally it will be smaller.

Torches used to be grouped into torch series. The modern torches we have were based on Linde designs and were grouped into "series". The two basic sizes are series 2 and series 3. A series 2 water cooled torch IS more bulky than a series 2 air cooled etc.. I am following those traditional grouping of series/consumable compatibility.


For the record, the 9 WILL be more nimble than a 20 series. It may carry less amperage, but that isn't/wasn't the concern of the poster.


17's run in the 150 amp range. The 26's are good for 200 amps. Some brands run more than others, but this is a typical 60 or 100% rating.

[Rambozo]

I've used WP-20s for over 30 years. I've also had 9's, 17's and 26's but always came back to the 20 as an all around best performer, (for me, YMMV). As sportbike said any air cooled will get too hot to handle without thick gloves in pretty short order. There is a difference between torch size and cable size/flexibility. While superflex cables may be very nimble, if the torch is too big to fit (26), or cannot handle the current required (9) it does you no good. If you are in an environment where you need a stout cable cover, then there is not a lot of difference between the two in an amps to amps comparison of cables. As far as I'm concerned, if you aren't comparing like amps, then is when you are not doing apples to apples. A 9 and a 20 are not even in the same ballpark, even though they are the same physical size. Apples to apples is a 26 compared to a 20 as they will both do about the same work. To use a 9 you should be comparing to a 24W to be in the same amp range and the 24W is so much smaller at the torch than a 9. It's only common sense that water cooling will make the same size torch carry more power.

Cable size and flexibility is a different argument than torch size. Also there are big reasons where water cooling would be impractical such as in a portable setup. But again, that's why there are so many options. There is no one torch/cable setup that is perfect for everyone. And someone new to TIG welding is not going to know what will best suit there needs until they get some time under their hoods.

My only question is why Everlast even ships a WP-18 as it is overkill for almost every welder they ship, with the possible exception of the 315LX.

For the record a WP-9 and a WP-20 are the exact same size TORCH, only the cables are different.

[sportbike]

Not using amps as the equalizer wodul be the same as saying an air cooled wp9 is smaller than a 26... A PT185 is smaller than a 250 as well...doesn't have half the features or anywhere the amps.
Of course the 9 is smaller. But not smaller than a micro torch, not even close.

why not include one of the big bulky 250amp capable air cooled torches with the 250EX if the watercooled isn't smaller?

[performance]

There, again, is misunderstanding. We offer the 18 series on the 250EX. It is WATERCOOLED. Yes, the big bulky torch that everyone is talking/complaining about, because it has a good duty cycle to match the 250 amps. The 26 which is a 200 amp unit is the aircooled version. We put that on the 200DX. The 185's are coming with 17's now (as I understand it). Again, the customer has said he is going to be doing low amp welding and needs the flexibility. Both have denim covers now, so the 20 isn't as flexible as the 9. The 9 will do everything the customer is wanting on the low end. No need for watercooled.

I've got 18's, 17's, 20's, 9's, and one 24. The 24 flex head fits the same handle as the 9. The length is longer withe the flexhead 24, and there isn't a back cap, but as far as lot smaller, I don't see it.

[Rambozo]

There, again, is misunderstanding. We offer the 18 series on the 250EX. It is WATERCOOLED.

My question is why a 350 amp torch on a 250 amp welder? Why not ship with a WP-20 250 amp torch? Isn't that a better match to the machine?

I'm not a huge fan of the 24/24W because of the tungsten limitations, but when welding inside cylinder head or manifold ports, it's the only thing to use and there is no way a 9/20 will fit, even with the shortest backcap, so I see it as much smaller where it counts.

[sportbike]

Ok, you win.
Watercooled torches are not smaller than air cooled torches.

[performance]

Rambozo,
There are TWO ratings on a torch, AC and DC. The 20 is only 250 amps DC current. AC, on ours, and several others is only 175 amps. That's why. The AC rating on the WP 18 is 250 amps. DC 350.

26 is 250 amps DC, 160 amps AC. 17 is 150 amps DC, 120amps AC. 9 is 125DC, 80 AC (with a lesser 60% duty cycle...others are at 100%.)

[Rambozo]

Fair enough. I know CK rates the same AC or DC and I swear Weldcraft used to, but don't seem to anymore. I probably wouldn't want to push the edge with a Chinese torch either, something I often forget about. I know I have welded hours on end at 300 amps with a 20 plus year old Weldcraft WP-20 on aluminum, but maybe they just don't make them like they used to.

[performance]

You have to remember that inverters can keep things hotter with the faster switching and square wave.