General stick welding question

[its_34]

I've had a mig for about 15 years and my 200dx for almost a year now. I have never welded stick before and think I might try it out, just because the machine can. My question is, why/when would I use this process? Other than the advantages of portability, wind tolerance, etc, are there cases where one would opt for stick if mig/tig/fcaw were also within reach? Please excuse my ignorance!

[joshuab]

Why use stick if you have MIG? I think that's a tougher question than, "Should I get a stick or MIG welder"? If you already have a MIG welder, there's not a lot you can't do. Add flux-core wire, and the concerns about using gas even go away. When a person is considering getting into a machine, the bar to entry for stick is a lot lower than MIG. The machines are simpler and cheaper. Also, there is less to go wrong with a stick machine compared to a MIG. Getting drive roll tension right, or cleaning a dirty liner, can be a hassle for a beginner. With stick, you can focus on the welding. I'm not sure there's a lot of motivation for a person who already has and is comfortable using a MIG to go with stick. Maybe you don't want to switch polarity to go over to flux-core wire?

The comparison to TIG is much easier to make. I have a TIG/stick machine (PA160-STH), and there are lots of times I choose stick over TIG. TIG is a wonderful process, but the amount of prep you have to do to get a good TIG weld tips the scales. I recently did some repair work on a used mower deck. No way was I going to go through the amount of work it would take to clean the deck enough to get a good TIG weld. Stick is faster than TIG. It's cheaper than TIG.

[Rambozo]

A couple of reasons come to mind, basically the ones you mentioned, plus a wide variety of electrodes for different purposes, including many specialty ones you can get in small quantities. Most specialty MIG wires are only in large spools, and sometimes require different gas. So for a small hardfacing job, or heavy stainless weld, it might be more cost effective to go stick. Maybe it's just me but it seems like stick welding can be more ductile in an as welded condition. Another feature is the ability to run longer leads, great if you are up on a ladder, or crawling through tight areas where you can't drag the MIG machine close enough. Jodi showed a great example where getting a weld between things was too tight for a MIG gun, but you could poke a stick through the gap and get the job done. It's just another tool in your belt, and once you have learned that, you might find other uses.

[youngnstudly]

I use stick for those times when I have something dirty to weld, or something extra heavy (thick) to weld. There's no expensive gas to buy, or expensive flux core to buy (it's more of the "sticker shock" when you buy it at $75+ for a name brand 10lb spool), and you don't have to worry about drive rolls or being careful with the stinger and it's lead. You could run that stick electrode over with a tractor and chances are, it will still work just fine. Oh, and no tips to change either.

Stick welding is about as cheap as it gets too, so if you don't want to spend a ton on supplies for a certain project, it works out well. I once used stick welding for everything I did (back in the day) since that's what my buddy owned (plus I was certified back then with stick). I don't use it for 14ga sheet metal work as I use to, but you can if you want to practice and get good at stick welding.

I wouldn't consider switching a MIG over to flux core if you have a stick welder already handy. For the application where either is going to be used, you have a lot more flexibility with electrodes for stick welding and the price and availability are great if you only want to weld a "farm" type project on a whim. Most home improvement stores carry a variety of your most common electrodes (in several diameters) and the price is inexpensive, plus you can choose the amount of rod you want to purchase (instead of being stuck buying a 2 pound spool or a 10 pound spool of flux core....for example, depending on your welder). I wouldn't drag your expensive 200dx into the middle of the field to weld on someone's tractor though.

Tig is expensive-PERIOD! So....you really have to be selective when using it for jobs that aren't going to bring you a return (money!). MIG is somewhat expensive as well with shielding gas taken into consideration (along with either type of wire).

Edit:I didn't see the above post until it was too late, but Rambozo's response has some excellent points that I missed! The different MIG gases (tri-mix and Argon/CO2 for example) take different cylinders, so not only do you have to buy them, you have to store a cylinder that you might not use all that often in the first place! Also, welding in tight areas can be much easier with stick than with a big ole' stinger that isn't all that flexible to begin with. NO trigger to hold down either (if you're welding all day long as I have done numerous times in production work, your hand and trigger finger can cramp up really bad from holding that trigger!).

[DaveO]

poke a stick through the gap and get the job done.

I remember having a "wish I'd thought of that" moment when a guy explained how he completed a tricky weld by bending the electrode to fit through a gap and around a corner. He could only burn an inch or so off the end of the electrode and burned 3 or 4 to get the job done, but the job got done.

[performance]

A good stick rod is a pleasure to burn. You can achieve near MIG speed welds with the right rods, like 7014/7024. Knowing everything is right in your world when you see the slag curling up behind your weld, seeing the beautiful stack of dimes, all shiny when you flick the slag away is something you don't get to experience with MIG. I don't hesitate to strike up an arc with either though. Each has it's place. IF it's thick, I find MIG more tedious than stick. If it's a "man's" job, stick is the first choice. Don't get me wrong...I own a 270 amp MIG machine, so I have the power. But for example, I had to weld a fire box onto a smoker, which included about 40 inches of weld across the top, about 60 inches overhead and a total of 40 inches vertical on over 5/16" plate to 1/4" plate. It included all positions. MIG tacked it up. Stick finished the job. Amazing how much metal you can lay down with a 5/32" 7014.

[its_34]

Thanks for all of the thorough responses. Sounds like (for my case at least) it's another just size hammer in the tool box. Consumable cost is not a major concern for me since I probably weld less in a year than some of you pros do in a day. Most of what I do is small, usually less than 1/8" thick, and I haven't touched the mig since the tig arrived. Since the new machine is capable, my only expense is a box of rod to give it a try.

[joshuab]

If you are working on material much thinner than about 3/32", you will probably find stick to be a frustrating experience--unless you have quite the hand for welding. A rule of thumb is that it will be hard to weld on material thinner than the diameter of the electrode. Therefore, for 1/8" material, you can use a 1/8" electrode with some care, but 3/32" is better. Stick welding sheet metal is 100% possible, but is a more specialized skill, requiring some practice, and the results are likely to be inferior to MIG in most cases, even if the operator is skilled.

1/16" electrodes do exist, but the problem is that they are so thin that it is hard to control them. Some people cut them in half to help with this.

[Rambozo]

One of the strangest welding tasks I did when I was young, was welding a long sheet metal skirt to the sides of a 40' semi race car trailer. It was probably 14 or 16 gauge sheet welded to the 1/8-3/16" thick lower box rails that held the marker lights. The skirt had boxes in it for hose reels, floor jacks and the like. But the whole thing was so low to the ground I could barely get my head under it, much less a welding helmet. After some practice and doing the portion in the front where I could see, I ended up doing the rest by reaching my arm under with the stinger, while watching the glow of the metal on the outside, and listening to the sound of the arc. I think I used 3/32" 6013 as I recall, with a Lincoln AC tombstone. Probably the only time I've welded without a helmet. It was just stitch welding and after a bead or two I would slide under to peek and see how I was doing. It turned out great, once I got the hang of it.

[DaveO]

Too funny, sounds like the movie "Mozart" where he was challenged to play the piano from underneath, "upside down" so to speak, and opposite hands. Welding blind... who'd'a thunk it.

[its_34]

I have no ambitions of using this for sheet metal work, mig and tig are too good for that. I think I'd like to try some 1/8 or even 1/4" scrap just to give it a try. Any recommendations on a forgiving, all purpose rod? Not necessarily concerned with function or strength, just something easy to learn with.

Oh, and I'm planning to watch through the helmet... No blind work for now!

[Rambozo]

7018 or 7014. Very forgiving. You can see an example of the rod running itself in the beginning of this video. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy5GC1zOatA
Doesn't get much more forgiving than that.
Only thing to remember is that to restart a used rod, you will need to break off a little of the flux tube that forms on the end.

[its_34]

Thanks for the link, I just watched to whole thing. If the electrode can weld by itself, maybe I can too.
I'll see what's available locally but 7014 looks like a good start.

[youngnstudly]

If you can get some (and you don't plan to use it for out of position welding), 7024 welds beautifully with little effort. If nothing else, see if you can get a pound of it to keep around. I second the 7014 choice for all purpose rod. I think 6011 would be my next choice, but see what you can get locally. As Mark mentioned, good rod is a pleasure to weld with!

[its_34]

Looks like my 1lb options are 6011 and 6013 locally so I'm going to pick up some 6011 and give it a shot this weekend. I guess if I was more patient or not so cheap, I'd buy 5lbs in several flavors and experiment a little more.

[youngnstudly]

That works! I started out with 6011 when first learning to stick weld, and you can't go wrong with it once you get the hang of things. After you try different rod, you can buy from an online store in a larger amount for better prices (sometimes). Of course you may find that you hate stick welding altogether and you'll never do it again after this experiment!

[DaveO]

Looks like my 1lb options are 6011 and 6013 locally

Where is "locally", if you don't mind me asking? You may be close by another member. I gave away all my duplicate rods when I gave a welder away but I'd still be willing to share. Rods are available at Home Depot and Lowe's, too (as well as Harbor Freight, but you may want to stay with a name brand because HF quality seems to vary).

BTW I saw your review over at weld.com- nicely done.

[joshuab]

In my experience, 7018 and 7014 both weld beautifully. I like to start total beginners on these rods because it is so easy to get a good looking weld, and it is relatively easy to show them where they went wrong (faster, slower, arc length) from the finished bead. 7018 is a bit of a hassle because of having to knock the slag off the rod for each re-start, which for beginners there are a lot of. If I could only weld with one rod forever, though, it would be 6011, no question, and the reason is that (at least in my hands), 7018 absolutely stinks for poor fitup and/or filling gaps, especially on thinner material. With 6011, I can pretty easily whip the rod to freeze the puddle and fill a gap, but 7018 just burns through in a second if it's concentrated on the edge of a piece. 6011 takes more practice to get a good weld out of, and it'll never look as smooth and pretty as 7018, but it stands up in places where 7018/14 fall down.

[its_34]

Where is "locally", if you don't mind me asking? You may be close by another member. I gave away all my duplicate rods when I gave a welder away but I'd still be willing to share. Rods are available at Home Depot and Lowe's, too (as well as Harbor Freight, but you may want to stay with a name brand because HF quality seems to vary).

I probably made that sound pretty remote! I'm in SoCal and have a LWS, HF, Lowes & HD all within a few miles. By locally, I guess I meant something I can go to outside of normal working hours. HD carries Lincoln and I can get there over the weekend. This is more of a "because I haven't" experiment, so I don't want more than 1lb in the event it goes in the "never again" category!

[Rambozo]

For a first timer between 6011 and 6013, I would go for the 6013. Much more tolerant of poor technique. 6011 is a great rod, but it requires skill to get the most out of it. Inverters also make the standard techniques for 6011 work a little differently.