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Thread: 250DX AC Aluminum Weld Issue

  1. #41

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    YOu've got a visibly dirty piece of metal...what is happening is whatever the substance is on the top, is being "scratched" deeper into the metal. No amount of etching can rid the metal of that kind of contamination. When welded it can definitely cause issues. Another thing you have to consider, since aluminum doesn't rust, but does oxidize, is how deep the oxidation goes. With the amount of visible staining on top here, and any interaction with steel and a cathode/anode interaction, (if this is the case) you will have extra deep oxidation. Ever try to weld on an aluminum boat that's been in salt water? Not the easiest thing in the world.
    Last edited by performance; 11-15-2013 at 01:37 AM.

  2. #42
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    Something strange is going on. Yeah, the metal isn't perfectly clean, but that isn't the whole problem. The welds look like poor shielding but also there is practically no cathodic etching along them. Looks like some at one end and that's it. It's almost like you are leaving out one detail that would shed some light on what is really going on. (Like for instance you have a fan blowing right on your work area). Just being able to hear what the arc sounds like could help. Any chance of a video? You say you have some experience with Aluminum TIG? On what kind of machines? BTW do you know what alloy of alum you are trying on? There are a few unweldable alloys that will give you fits. If you don't know, then maybe get some new, clean, 6061 to remove that from the equation.
    Long arc, short arc, heliarc and in-the-dark!

  3. Default

    Any chance its stuck on DC, does it buzz when the frequency is at 250? 4043 will need close 1/8 inch of visible cleaning action per side before the weld will get shinny, 5356 will get shinny with almost no cleaning action at all. I use 5356 most of the time because you can stop and start without the frosty band in the weld from a restart, I only use 4043 when it is a critical weld.

    If you can crank in the electrode positive and not see any cleaning action or the tungsten does not ball up and burn back something is wrong. Possible bad A/C / D/C switch or bad AC balance potentiometer.

    My welder will not lay down beautiful welds with 4043 with less than 35% electrode positive and 20 CFH, I have to crank up the frequency to keep the tungsten from balling up.

    Any cups that chokes down like #5 and #6 or #8 on a large gas lens seem to help on aluminum, turn the bottle on all the way and make sure the collet body is tight and don't rely on the cap to tighten up and seal the torch consumables, this may help as well.

  4. #44

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    Guys, if you'll read, he was balling his tungsten at one time.

  5. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by performance View Post
    Guys, if you'll read, he was balling his tungsten at one time.
    What's your point there?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambozo View Post
    Something strange is going on. Yeah, the metal isn't perfectly clean, but that isn't the whole problem. The welds look like poor shielding but also there is practically no cathodic etching along them. Looks like some at one end and that's it. It's almost like you are leaving out one detail that would shed some light on what is really going on. (Like for instance you have a fan blowing right on your work area). Just being able to hear what the arc sounds like could help. Any chance of a video? You say you have some experience with Aluminum TIG? On what kind of machines? BTW do you know what alloy of alum you are trying on? There are a few unweldable alloys that will give you fits. If you don't know, then maybe get some new, clean, 6061 to remove that from the equation.
    I will try to get video on the weekend. I'll setup a tripod and make sure you can hear everything.
    I have no fan or anything like that around my work area. My gas is flowing out of the tip so in theory it should be shielding.

    As far as I know when I bought the sheet it's 1/8" 6061 aluminum. At this point though I'm questioning everything. For all I know it could be 5053 or some sh!t.

    I've welded on a Hobart TIGmate a decent amount before I got this machine. Much simpler operation. I've also been using a Airco 300 "buzzbox" I believe is the nickname(don't know though). Older machine from the late 70's apparently. That's the other machine I currently weld on at work.
    Everlast 250EX
    Hobart 140 MIG

  6. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dmost View Post
    Well I tried the water cooled torch. Doesn't seem any different as it was before. I guess the next step is to check for bad gas. If I had bad gas would I still be able to weld steel nicely? After I welded some aluminum I threw down some nice beads on steel with no problem. Well here is the picture of the welds.

    Attachment 11254Attachment 11255
    Lets see if we can make some headway here.

    Adding the water cooling won't weld differently, it will just keep your torch from a complete meltdown. Water cooled torches cannot handle very much current nor for very long. A water cooled torch without the water is NOT equal to a gas cooled setup, perhaps one quarter of its water cooled rating. Even then I would rather use a true gas-cooled setup rather than ever do any actual welding with a dry water cooled torch.

    On to your aluminum problems. These first are basic, but we have to eliminate fundamental things to get a known baseline condition. It appears that your alum plate can be welded, but not all aluminum alloys do so readily. If you could get a known piece of 6061, or verify that this is, that would be good. Once we figure out your problem, it should weld through anything on this plate, It looks clean enough to get a proper weld laid down. Make a habit of a final wipe with acetone before you weld.

    Verify Torch in NEG terminal, work clamp in POS.

    There are sporadic signs of cathode etching, so somehow we are getting some Electrode Positive cleaning action. You need to verify it's going into AC mode. Toggle from DC - smooth & quiet, to AC - 100hz or so, it'll buzz at a nice medium frequency audible tone. Make sure AC is operational, btw, do not use pulse for these tests, please.

    Gas flow can cause what is shown, so we need to test gas flow from the regulator to the back of the machine, to the open end of the assembled torch cup. Pull gas hose from back of machine and test regulator for proper operation. With an open hose dial in flow rates up to perhaps 15 LPM and back down to off. That proves the hose and regulator. Next we need to re-install hose and test the flow through the machine's gas solenoid. Disassemble the torch, remove cap and collet body, use a bare torch for this. Then in Lift Start (so you are not dealing with the HiFreq. mode), hit the pedal and see if you get a good flow at various settings all the way to the bare torch end.

    Test for leaks through the entire system by blocking off both sides of the bare torch, hit the pedal and see if you have any flow, you should not.

    If all good so far, build the torch back up, and be careful that the collet body gas holes are not blocked by the cup. This can happen if the insulator keeps the cup out a ways on the collet body threads. Use a #6 cup, and with the torch reassembled, with 1/4" stickout, verify a setting of 8-9 LPM on the flowmeter, and listen and feel for good flow at the open cup.

    I would be interested in knowing if your successful steel tigging you mentioned had any red smoky areas or if it was pristine when complete.

    If all good so far then make the following machine settings: Use pedal, AC mode, 2T, Pre-Flow 0.5 sec, Post-Flow 5.0 sec, Up/Down slope Off, 200 Amps, 100Hz Freq., 30%EP balance, freshly sharpened tungsten, 1/4" stickout, #6 cup, good ground connection, HF Start, 4043 filler.

    If the tungsten burns into a loose dribbling molten ball, there is something wrong with the balance, it should stay sharp and just soften at the tip. If it balls badly, re-grind and try setting balance the other way, this would indicate a machine issue, as Everlast machines reference % of Electrode Positive.

    If you can sustain an arc on this aluminum, with an arc gap of about 1/16", you should be getting good cathodic cleaning, a light foggy area around the puddle, and a shiny puddle. Make sure there are no breezes from fans or other to blow away the shielding gas. The fans on the machines ARE enough to ruin your shielded environment if at just the wrong location.

    If you dip the tungsten even the slightest, stop and re-grind it, there can be no aluminum stuck on it.

    If you complete each step in order, and still have issues, I'd look at the gas, try a known good tank, even if you have to borrow one.

    Hope we can get you going soon, report back your findings when you get a chance.

    Edit: This is funny, while I'm writing this long post, Rambozo and srp make posts covering similar salient points, that happened last time, too! Oh well, we're just trying to help a guy out, good advice men!
    Last edited by JimMinKent; 11-15-2013 at 04:23 AM.
    Jim

    Everlast PowerTig 255 EXT - Bugatti Veyron
    Everlast PowerTig 250 EXT - Sent home by Ricksha
    Everlast Power I-Mig 140E - Handy little helper
    Everlast PowerArc 140 ST - Rapid Response Unit
    Miller Syncrowave 250 - Old Ironsides - Sold
    Miller Maxstar 150 STH - Nice, nice, nice
    Miller Spectrum Thunder Plasma Cutter - Cute
    HyperTherm MAX43 Plasma Cutter - Good worker
    Lincoln PowerMig 255 - Workhorse shop Mig
    ReadyWelder Spoolgun - Great portable gun

  7. #47

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    My point was in reply to post #43. You've already done this.

  8. #48

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    Can you hear a frequency change when you go from 10 o'clock to 2 o'clock on the Hz knob?

    I agree with Mark, it's dirty aluminum (about all we get to work with) but the weld does not look right either. Is this with the new torch you were sent?
    Mike R.
    Email: admineverlast@everlastwelders.com
    www.everlastgenerators.com
    www.everlastwelders.com
    877-755-9353 x203
    M-F 12 - 7PM PST
    FYI: PP50, PP80, IMIG-200, IMIG-250P, 210EXT and 255EXT.

  9. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by everlastsupport View Post
    Can you hear a frequency change when you go from 10 o'clock to 2 o'clock on the Hz knob?

    I agree with Mark, it's dirty aluminum (about all we get to work with) but the weld does not look right either. Is this with the new torch you were sent?
    Yea I can hear a very different change when I got from say 50 to 150. So it seems like the frequency is working. No this was with the water cooled torch I have rigged with a hose. Worked very well actually. Well, kind of.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimMinKent View Post
    Lets see if we can make some headway here.

    Adding the water cooling won't weld differently, it will just keep your torch from a complete meltdown. Water cooled torches cannot handle very much current nor for very long. A water cooled torch without the water is NOT equal to a gas cooled setup, perhaps one quarter of its water cooled rating. Even then I would rather use a true gas-cooled setup rather than ever do any actual welding with a dry water cooled torch.

    On to your aluminum problems. These first are basic, but we have to eliminate fundamental things to get a known baseline condition. It appears that your alum plate can be welded, but not all aluminum alloys do so readily. If you could get a known piece of 6061, or verify that this is, that would be good. Once we figure out your problem, it should weld through anything on this plate, It looks clean enough to get a proper weld laid down. Make a habit of a final wipe with acetone before you weld.

    Verify Torch in NEG terminal, work clamp in POS.

    There are sporadic signs of cathode etching, so somehow we are getting some Electrode Positive cleaning action. You need to verify it's going into AC mode. Toggle from DC - smooth & quiet, to AC - 100hz or so, it'll buzz at a nice medium frequency audible tone. Make sure AC is operational, btw, do not use pulse for these tests, please.

    Gas flow can cause what is shown, so we need to test gas flow from the regulator to the back of the machine, to the open end of the assembled torch cup. Pull gas hose from back of machine and test regulator for proper operation. With an open hose dial in flow rates up to perhaps 15 LPM and back down to off. That proves the hose and regulator. Next we need to re-install hose and test the flow through the machine's gas solenoid. Disassemble the torch, remove cap and collet body, use a bare torch for this. Then in Lift Start (so you are not dealing with the HiFreq. mode), hit the pedal and see if you get a good flow at various settings all the way to the bare torch end.

    Test for leaks through the entire system by blocking off both sides of the bare torch, hit the pedal and see if you have any flow, you should not.

    If all good so far, build the torch back up, and be careful that the collet body gas holes are not blocked by the cup. This can happen if the insulator keeps the cup out a ways on the collet body threads. Use a #6 cup, and with the torch reassembled, with 1/4" stickout, verify a setting of 8-9 LPM on the flowmeter, and listen and feel for good flow at the open cup.

    I would be interested in knowing if your successful steel tigging you mentioned had any red smoky areas or if it was pristine when complete.

    If all good so far then make the following machine settings: Use pedal, AC mode, 2T, Pre-Flow 0.5 sec, Post-Flow 5.0 sec, Up/Down slope Off, 200 Amps, 100Hz Freq., 30%EP balance, freshly sharpened tungsten, 1/4" stickout, #6 cup, good ground connection, HF Start, 4043 filler.

    If the tungsten burns into a loose dribbling molten ball, there is something wrong with the balance, it should stay sharp and just soften at the tip. If it balls badly, re-grind and try setting balance the other way, this would indicate a machine issue, as Everlast machines reference % of Electrode Positive.

    If you can sustain an arc on this aluminum, with an arc gap of about 1/16", you should be getting good cathodic cleaning, a light foggy area around the puddle, and a shiny puddle. Make sure there are no breezes from fans or other to blow away the shielding gas. The fans on the machines ARE enough to ruin your shielded environment if at just the wrong location.

    If you dip the tungsten even the slightest, stop and re-grind it, there can be no aluminum stuck on it.

    If you complete each step in order, and still have issues, I'd look at the gas, try a known good tank, even if you have to borrow one.

    Hope we can get you going soon, report back your findings when you get a chance.

    Edit: This is funny, while I'm writing this long post, Rambozo and srp make posts covering similar salient points, that happened last time, too! Oh well, we're just trying to help a guy out, good advice men!

    I'll try to get some 6061 today and do this over the weekend. For starters I know the torch was in the NEG and the clamp was in the POS. Also I can hear when using the frequency so that would tell me AC is working. Yea haven't touched pulse for any of this. Another thing is my tungston stayed perfectly sharp threw the tests I did yesterday. The rest of this I'm going to go through this weekend. I'll come back with the results of my findings.
    Everlast 250EX
    Hobart 140 MIG

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmost View Post
    My gas is flowing out of the tip so in theory it should be shielding.
    Unfortunately that isn't the case. Leaks typically draw air into the gas stream so you will still feel gas flowing out of the tip. I'm still going with some kind of shielding problem. If you followed Jim's steps you should be able to rule out leaks. I typically just push the tungsten back from the cup mouth, then put my thumb over the cup and watch the flow meter. You should see no flow, once it settles. To be safe turn off HF, and crank the post flow to max, then tap the switch to start the flow, release, then put your thumb over it, since this machine doesn't have a purge button.
    If that passes, then bad gas could a problem. You asked before if that would effect steel. Steel is much more tolerant of dirty or moist gas. Aluminum will absolutely not tolerate any moisture in your argon.
    Long arc, short arc, heliarc and in-the-dark!

  11. Default

    The consensus recognizes this is a shielding problem.

    It could be very low gas flow.

    It could be a leak, drawing air into the gas stream.

    It could be tungsten sticking out past the effective cone of shielding gas.

    It could be contaminated gas, others have seen that more than me.

    OR they may have given you C-25.

    The point is when we get good clean pure argon gas flow, you will be able to weld that plate. I don't see anything that cannot be explained by poor shielding.
    Jim

    Everlast PowerTig 255 EXT - Bugatti Veyron
    Everlast PowerTig 250 EXT - Sent home by Ricksha
    Everlast Power I-Mig 140E - Handy little helper
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  12. Default

    Ok gents...it looks like the problem has been found. Bad gas. I borrowed a known good bottle from work I've used and ran some beads on known 6061 and the old unknown piece I did my previous tests on. From what I can see it solved the problem. I was using the settings Jim posted then I fiddled with them a bit. Seems like that fixed the problem. I'll be getting a bottle swap at GTS hopefully a free one for having bad gas.

    I really appreciate all the help you guys have given me. You guys rock.

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    Last edited by dmost; 11-19-2013 at 03:31 AM.
    Everlast 250EX
    Hobart 140 MIG

  13. #53
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    Good to hear that. It really blows when you can't count on getting what you pay for from a gas supplier.
    Long arc, short arc, heliarc and in-the-dark!

  14. #54

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    I know people do not believe it is possible, but once again it was. Maybe new rule, borrow a tank first if you can.

    Glad you are up and running.
    Mike R.
    Email: admineverlast@everlastwelders.com
    www.everlastgenerators.com
    www.everlastwelders.com
    877-755-9353 x203
    M-F 12 - 7PM PST
    FYI: PP50, PP80, IMIG-200, IMIG-250P, 210EXT and 255EXT.

  15. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by everlastsupport View Post
    I know people do not believe it is possible, but once again it was. Maybe new rule, borrow a tank first if you can.

    Glad you are up and running.
    Yea I'm thinking that's now my new first step when diagnosing a problem. Check for bad gas.
    Everlast 250EX
    Hobart 140 MIG

  16. Default

    Great news!

    Around here the gas is very well trusted, and the last thing I would suspect. This outcome makes sense, but I'd like to know just how wrong/contaminated gas can find it's way into a cylinder.

    I am real glad you are up and running, and doing so well, too Those are nice beads. I see you also used my patented technique of dipping the tungsten just a little when cratering out, that is my signature touch I use it a LOT more often, though!
    Last edited by JimMinKent; 11-19-2013 at 04:06 PM.
    Jim

    Everlast PowerTig 255 EXT - Bugatti Veyron
    Everlast PowerTig 250 EXT - Sent home by Ricksha
    Everlast Power I-Mig 140E - Handy little helper
    Everlast PowerArc 140 ST - Rapid Response Unit
    Miller Syncrowave 250 - Old Ironsides - Sold
    Miller Maxstar 150 STH - Nice, nice, nice
    Miller Spectrum Thunder Plasma Cutter - Cute
    HyperTherm MAX43 Plasma Cutter - Good worker
    Lincoln PowerMig 255 - Workhorse shop Mig
    ReadyWelder Spoolgun - Great portable gun

  17. Default

    And yet, it was good enough to weld steel?

    That's interesting...

  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmost View Post
    Yea I'm thinking that's now my new first step when diagnosing a problem. Check for bad gas.
    Did not think about it, but if moisture, a trap from your air compressor might have seen it improve some and give a sign.
    But if Co2, would still have the issue.
    Mike R.
    Email: admineverlast@everlastwelders.com
    www.everlastgenerators.com
    www.everlastwelders.com
    877-755-9353 x203
    M-F 12 - 7PM PST
    FYI: PP50, PP80, IMIG-200, IMIG-250P, 210EXT and 255EXT.

  19. Default

    I have not read all the replies, so if this has been mentioned already, sorry. It looks like in the picture you posted of your machine, that your torch is plugged into the positive terminal. I think I see the gas hose jetting out from the left side of the connector. This is incorrect. Your torch for TIG should be in the negative port and the work clamp in the positive. Switch these accordingly and things should improve. Remember, to set the balance back to appx 30%. Also, be careful where your machine is in proximity to your work. The cooling fan blows out the front and sides on my 250 and it will wisp the argon right off the job.
    Last edited by nils; 11-30-2013 at 08:12 PM.

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