OK, neighbors here I go...

[Yofish]

I bought an IMIG 200 to try and hook up a Miller 30A spoolgun up to it. I recieved it today and tested it on stick using 5P and 7018. I was pleasantly surprised on how well it ran both - much better, in my opinion, than my 200DX. I know the DX is not supposed to run 5P but I haven't been crazy about how it runs LO-HI, either. The arc seems much smoother with the IMIG. The control in stick mode is YOYO - You're On Your Own - as the readouts mean nothing and is dialed in at the POT. No biggie, same as my other analog machines. I have not played with the arc control, I didn't buy it to stick weld but I'm encouraged enough to play more. The idea behind this effort is to have portability for jobs that I do in a harbor where 220V is available dockside in places or on boats that generate their own power, usually 208V. That it welds stick too, and well it seems, is icing. I do mostly aluminum. When I bought it, I asked for a female connector (Amphenol type) that is part of their spoolgun hook-up, which, they gave me for free, so as to have internal access for my designs. My probing so far shows that the contactor (lugweld says there is no contactor) which is energized by jumping the two pin contacts on the Euro style connection. At the Amphenol, which has four wires to it, two provide 13VDC, which apparently provides power for the spoolgun. The two other connections I cannot figure. Anyway, I'm off to make this work. I'll update how it goes, one way or another. Failure is not a concern. BTW, Alex gave me a good deal on the unit.

[performance]

The gun you have is too big for the i mig 200. You need the 250 or the mts 250S. The 200 cannot provide enough power to run the heavy gauge wire you are wanting to...and give you enough power to spray without creating an overcurrent or duty cycle condition by causing too large of a surge with the thicker diameter wire. (plus duty cycle is rated at 160 amps for mig (35%) and not 200 Amps. The relative position of the wirespeed pot on the panel changes the voltage to the spool gun just as it does to the wire feeder to increase or decrease the feed rate. As you vary the wire speed (amperage) pot on the panel, you are actually varying the voltage to either the wire feeder in the unit or to the spool gun. You have NO wire speed controlability on the spool gun itself on the i mig 200. The two wires in the amphenol connector are the switch wires which provide variable power to the spool gun. (If you turn the wire feed speed up and down the voltage will vary, probably not over 17V though) The "other" two wires actually go to the Euro Quick connect where the MIG gun (our gun) plugs in and is connected to the switch. This means to run our spool guns, you have to dismount the regular gun. The two little spring loaded pins are the MIG gun/Spool gun switch control (on/off). You don't have a large, separate contactor like you do in an old transformer welder. There is a relay soldered directly into a small circuit board with resistors and capacitors on it The actual welding power is provided at the Euro quick connect as well. You can see the relay in this photo off of my original unit on the upper left just below the pots and above the feed motor, though things may be a little different looking now. I took this picture the other day for a customer who was wanting to compare circuits. This is the first i MIG 160/200 brought in. I am still using it regularly, and it runs hotter than many production units but it's all it wants with .035 alum wire with the SM200 gun.

The numbers on the wirefeed speed are fairly close in inches per minute, but can be 15% off depending on wire size. But when you start welding it displays actual amps output. When stick welding the same control does display amps. The arc force control affects both MIG and Stick modes. In stick mode though it controls the "dig" and boosts amps when the welding voltage falls, so amps will not always stay steady when welding if the panel is being watched. This is normal and is what you'd find on any inverter with arc force control and a display. When ever you you strike an arc, it goes from a static preset figure to an actual measurement of amps being put out.

[everlastsupport]

You will need two wires to power the motor. And two wire to turn it on and off by shorting the pins I believe. I can check. Somewhere I documented it and also hooking the pot up to vary the wire speed at the gun.

We use the IMIG 200 on a 5500 watt gen all the time for mobile aluminum MIG welding. Works very well. A lot of broken aluminum along the ocean here.

[performance]

Mike the Miller 30A is a huge gun has it's own gas control built in and he'll be running it direct from the tank and I assume trying to patch together something for a Euro quick connect. And he is going to be using .045 wire I think. I don't think the standard 200 is going to handle it in true axial spray mode to "pound" on. He didn't want the 200 gun of ours because he said it wasn't heavy enough.

[everlastsupport]

Oh, no spray for sure, not enough power. .045, is a bit thick for that imig. We run .030 no problems and C25.

[performance]

This is for aluminum strictly so he must use pure Ar and spray. Can't use a mix with aluminum MIG unless i thas a little He added to it.

[Yofish]

Mike the Miller 30A is a huge gun has it's own gas control built in and he'll be running it direct from the tank and I assume trying to patch together something for a Euro quick connect. And he is going to be using .045 wire I think. I don't think the standard 200 is going to handle it in true axial spray mode to "pound" on. He didn't want the 200 gun of ours because he said it wasn't heavy enough.

Mark, I thought about trying to get fancy by using the Euro. As you point out, the 30A is in of itself the gas control at the trigger. KISS. This is true even when hooked up to the XR feeder, the gas merely goes in-and-out to the gun. There is no control. Pre and post flow is timed by the human brain sending impulses to the trigger finger. The Miller 30A, INMHO, is the most bomb-proof, toughest gun on the planet. TRUE STORY: In 1988 I was building a small seiner as I was a commercial fisherman. After too many 12 hour days to get it done along with all my other hanging projects I took off with it to give a test after completing a certain part of the whole - not remembering that the welder was on the seine tray - it (the XR feeder and gun) went (saltwater) overboard. My wife watching screamed in time that the power source did not go. 50ft of stretch and 30ft of gun on the bottom. I yarded it up and put it a garbage can of fresh water for a day then opened everything up and dried it for three days. The gun still runs and the feeder gave up last year. Now that, is service.

They ruined the 30A with the new 'Qwik' gas cup and contact tip, but hey, that's an engineers job!

[Kempy]

Yofish
Nice weld with the 30A, I thought of doing that with my MTS250S the Spool gun SM 200-N that I ordered with my machine work very well with steel but get very hot on aluminum, it was make a water cooled tip or just get a bigger gun like the 30A.

[Yofish]

kempy, I do mostly pretty good sized stuff. here is a pic of one of my latest completed projects - a 40' landingcraft:



The hardest weld on boat like this in terms of the pressure put on the gun is the chine. You've got about 100' of corner-to-corner weld, in this case .190 against .250" material that once you start you don't want stop because you're heating the hull up nicely as you move along and want to take advantage of that blessed pre-heat energy. I can do about 12" before I'm too far out of position; I'll stop, cut out the end with a die grinder and a carbide burr then start again. When the gun overheats I stick the barrel in a coffee can full of water for about 5 seconds; remove and wait about 30 more secs then go. The trick is not to over do the dunk otherwise the residual moisture isn't too cool, to make a pun. Works like a charm, try it. And thanks for the kind comments.

Gerry, that is exactly what the Miller PSA-2 does: provide 24VAC that is converted by the WC-24 to DCV. It also has some relays in it that provide various ways for contactor actuation. But you are right in your thinking. It's a pretty spendy combo, the WC-24 and PSA-2. If purchased new would cost as much as I paid for the whole machine. Thanks for the thought.

Off to the shop for a little more testing!

[Yofish]

The gun you have is too big for the i mig 200. You need the 250 or the mts 250S. The 200 cannot provide enough power to run the heavy gauge wire you are wanting to...and give you enough power to spray without creating an overcurrent or duty cycle condition by causing too large of a surge with the thicker diameter wire. (plus duty cycle is rated at 160 amps for mig (35%) and not 200 Amps. The relative position of the wirespeed pot on the panel changes the voltage to the spool gun just as it does to the wire feeder to increase or decrease the feed rate. As you vary the wire speed (amperage) pot on the panel, you are actually varying the voltage to either the wire feeder in the unit or to the spool gun. You have NO wire speed controlability on the spool gun itself on the i mig 200. The two wires in the amphenol connector are the switch wires which provide variable power to the spool gun. (If you turn the wire feed speed up and down the voltage will vary, probably not over 17V though) The "other" two wires actually go to the Euro Quick connect where the MIG gun (our gun) plugs in and is connected to the switch. This means to run our spool guns, you have to dismount the regular gun. The two little spring loaded pins are the MIG gun/Spool gun switch control (on/off). You don't have a large, separate contactor like you do in an old transformer welder. There is a relay soldered directly into a small circuit board with resistors and capacitors on it The actual welding power is provided at the Euro quick connect as well. You can see the relay in this photo off of my original unit on the upper left just below the pots and above the feed motor, though things may be a little different looking now. I took this picture the other day for a customer who was wanting to compare circuits. This is the first i MIG 160/200 brought in. I am still using it regularly, and it runs hotter than many production units but it's all it wants with .035 alum wire with the SM200 gun.

The numbers on the wirefeed speed are fairly close in inches per minute, but can be 15% off depending on wire size. But when you start welding it displays actual amps output. When stick welding the same control does display amps. The arc force control affects both MIG and Stick modes. In stick mode though it controls the "dig" and boosts amps when the welding voltage falls, so amps will not always stay steady when welding if the panel is being watched. This is normal and is what you'd find on any inverter with arc force control and a display. When ever you you strike an arc, it goes from a static preset figure to an actual measurement of amps being put out.

Mark, thanks for the great, detailed reply. Here is what I am basing my (crazy) decision on: My current main machine is a Hobart Pota-Flex (ever heard of that? Early inverter machine made by Panasonic) which will run .047" wire @ 150A, 21V. I use that setting all the time for .125-.190" material to my satisfaction. I completely and respectfully disagree that the 30A 'is too big'. If this doesn't work with .047" I have no probs dropping down to .035". Hell, I've used .030" plenty of times, point being, gun size has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm doing, unless there is not enough volts for the drive motor. I don't like those little toy guns and I don't want to buy your bigger gun because I already own three 30A's. If this works then I'm prepared to pony up for one of your bigger machines to run the whole taco - a XR suitcase and the 30A gun. I have had Printz, Cobra, Hobart Linear's and other guns. For over 30 years the Miller pistol guns have served me better than any. Again, what I'm trying to do here is have an extremely portable machine that is for that purpose. I have no pretensions for this to replace my main machines. It is very attractive that this machine runs on a 5.5K generator which means all of it will fit easily in a Cessna 172-180. Believe it or not, I've been asked if I could weld aluminum in very remote places.

Here is what I think I'm going to do after I opened up the machine and probed with a VOM: I'm going to install a three function switch on the front of the machine that a) shunts the + power from the internal drive motor after the speed control POT so the 30A motor is controlled by said POT, and b) shunts the 2 control wires from the Euro connector to two free pins on the pin connector. Four of the pins on said connector are taken so I'll remove one now unnecessary wire from the connector to do this. Now I have the trigger on the 30A actuating the weld power and drive motor power controlled by the speed control POT. I've tested it by baring some wires on the 30A and jumping to the box. Thus throwing the switch one way will make the machine work Euro, and the other way will run my spoolgun. I have no problems with the wire speed control being on the box, I don't spend much time adjusting wire speed after I'm set up. Of course, the proof will be in the pudding as to how well the wire speed will be controlled but I see no insurmountable problems. Worse case, I have Miller controller for older style machines that makes 24VDC from 120VAC.

You say that the POT controls the voltage at the pin connector but all I get is a steady 13VDC there. At the internal drive motor I get up to 15+. And you say that those other two wires on the pin connector go to the Euro 'on-off' pins? I'm confused by your description of what the wires going to the pin connector (amphenol type) do.

Thanks again!

PS When is Everlast going to have good documentation for ALL their products? My 200DX came with a charming Chinglish pamphlet and this unit came with NOTHING.

[Yofish]

BTW, is this a bend test?



I build a lot of fuel tanks. Again, this is .100" (I thought 5052 but on bending it it looks more like 5086 by the stretch marks) welded the dreaded short arc method. Tomorrow I'll get out the 'scope and take some close-ups. Of course, if one could weld the inside you'd remove the hickie penetration but who welds the inside of a fuel tank when you can this root outside in? I've never had a weld on a tank fail. I wish I could say that about other welds.

[Gerry]

Could you use a 110V to 25V transformer for the 24V of the WC-24.

[fdcmiami]

right. why be nice? for science? you're kidding.

I have been running wire through miller guns off of miller equipment since the days of the spoolmatics 1,2, and 3.

I would like to have a little more info about the photo provided. any chance we could get link to the location of the original.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for this guy to rewrite the standards for al wire welding. be nice if you want, rolling over has become an American past time.

me, I still call an jackaxx a jackaxx.

[zoama]

right. why be nice? for science? you're kidding.

I have been running wire through miller guns off of miller equipment since the days of the spoolmatics 1,2, and 3.

I would like to have a little more info about the photo provided. any chance we could get link to the location of the original.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for this guy to rewrite the standards for al wire welding. be nice if you want, rolling over has become an American past time.

me, I still call an jackaxx a jackaxx.

My point is that if everyone dogpiles the man we will never see. I don't have all the answers... I'm here to learn.
He didn't ask how to weld.

[performance]

First, no ill will toward Yofish. He seems to be a Salmon swimming upstream for an inevitable end. He is welcome and should feel free to post....BUT....

My concern is spreading misinformation and giving other customers false impressions about correct procedures and expectations of the units capability. I can't tell you how many times I get a call from a customer who "has read" something about one of our units or alleged capability and then bought it and was displeased when they find out it was bad information from some body talking out of the wrong body part.

If it isn't challenged, then it becomes a likely source of disinformation and opens Everlast up to people with expectations that cannot be satisfied, and even possible legal issues. Again, like FDCMiami said, need a little more info about the picture provided, and I'd like to see bend tests on top of that. I've talked to guys who have welded for 50 years with MIG and never heard of spray welding and weren't sure what it was...or how to recognize it. Experience can be a faulty teacher without the appropriate knowledge base.

[Yofish]

So, I rethought a little and and after not finding the switch I wanted I decided to run what I brung. I have an Miller adaptor that made the so called 'second generation' XR gun work with the 1st generation XR feeder. I whacked it in half (gag) to make the connection between the 30A and the IMig pin connector. First, I removed the male connector from the IMig and removed all the wires and replaced them with 18ga wire to do the two functions of energizing the weld power and provide power to the drive motor. Only four lines needed.



After reinstalling it, I butt into various wires to make appropriate connects:



Then I built the adapter. In my little burg there was no four conductor wire so I just used 18ga hook-up wire and helping hands:



After soldering and heatshrink, we have the completed adapter. I'll wrap it later. Notice funky 30A; that is the very unit that went swimming in 1988. Pretty dodgy but still cranks wire, sort of:



And so here we have the 1st weld on .190" with .035" wire. Machine set @ 21.5V and I'm told it read between 140-150A. The only issue is that the wire speed is cranked almost full open. I was worried about that because I only got 15+ on the VOM and I know the Miller WC-24 puts out 24. But it works! If I'm not happy with the wire output, I can use a WC-24 and a PSA-2 that I have. I was wishfully hoping for an 'all-in-one' solution. Even with these additional appurtenances, it is still handier than anything I have.



I'm pretty sure that I can make this work for what I intended. I'll play around with it tomorrow using .030, 3/64" and differing settings.

I briefly looked at some of the later comments and will pass on commenting other than yes, salmon DO, indeed, swim upstream and I do love Alaska and all us hicks.

[Yofish]

I've been playing more with the new machine. I'm finishing a 40' aluminum boat trailer and had to do some steel on the hitch. This thing runs LO-HI better than any machine I have. Only 3/32" but man, what beautiful stable arc. More tweaking with AL and again, I'm impressed. Maybe counter intuitive, but .047" works the best for me. That could be because that it is my main wire and has been my whole career, a leftover from the guy I learned from. I am really, really happy. The only thing left is to really put it though some duty other than 12" tests. I can't wait to show up somewhere and be 'laughed at'! What is so cool is that the internal DC power supply runs the gun so well. I'm curious as to why the output is not 24V as Mark implied but I think my time to be answered by the Everlast guys has expired. With the 30A there is a whole bunch of monkey-motion between the pot on the gun and the power at the welder or feeder that, frankly I would never be able to figure out how to configure. The 30A has seven wires to the gun. Now, only four do the job at the expense of not having wire speed control at the gun.

The unanswered Everlast guy question again is can I fry this thing and not know it? That is my only remaining concern.

[zoama]

The unanswered Everlast guy question again is can I fry this thing and not know it? That is my only remaining concern.

From what they've said in the past, you don't want to rely on the machine to shut down and save itself every time. Maybe you should test the duty cycle of your setup, then back off that a little to keep it safe.

[Yofish]

From what they've said in the past, you don't want to rely on the machine to shut down and save itself every time. Maybe you should test the duty cycle of your setup, then back off that a little to keep it safe.

Thanks zoama, do I take that to mean that it does have fault protection but it's not reliable? Buy fault protection I mean like the machine will not weld until it rights itself? And that protection is not a fuse but a real auto reset fault protection breaker?

[zoama]

Thanks zoama, do I take that to mean that it does have fault protection but it's not reliable? Buy fault protection I mean like the machine will not weld until it rights itself? And that protection is not a fuse but a real auto reset fault protection breaker?

The official word will have to come from Everlast. I have nothing to do with tech support.
I believe the protection is reliable but welding until it shuts down repeatedly may still cause damage. I know that sounds contradicting, but that's my understanding from what I've read.
I've never overheated one of my machines, but I have tripped some sort of protection on my mig welder when I first struck an arc. In that instance the machine stays running and the wire still feeds but won't arc. The machine has to be turned off and back on to reset.
I'm sure you can get much better info by calling tech support and talking to Ray, Mike or Mark http://www.everlastgenerators.com/Technical-support.php