OK, neighbors here I go...

[Yofish]

I bought an IMIG 200 to try and hook up a Miller 30A spoolgun up to it. I recieved it today and tested it on stick using 5P and 7018. I was pleasantly surprised on how well it ran both - much better, in my opinion, than my 200DX. I know the DX is not supposed to run 5P but I haven't been crazy about how it runs LO-HI, either. The arc seems much smoother with the IMIG. The control in stick mode is YOYO - You're On Your Own - as the readouts mean nothing and is dialed in at the POT. No biggie, same as my other analog machines. I have not played with the arc control, I didn't buy it to stick weld but I'm encouraged enough to play more. The idea behind this effort is to have portability for jobs that I do in a harbor where 220V is available dockside in places or on boats that generate their own power, usually 208V. That it welds stick too, and well it seems, is icing. I do mostly aluminum. When I bought it, I asked for a female connector (Amphenol type) that is part of their spoolgun hook-up, which, they gave me for free, so as to have internal access for my designs. My probing so far shows that the contactor (lugweld says there is no contactor) which is energized by jumping the two pin contacts on the Euro style connection. At the Amphenol, which has four wires to it, two provide 13VDC, which apparently provides power for the spoolgun. The two other connections I cannot figure. Anyway, I'm off to make this work. I'll update how it goes, one way or another. Failure is not a concern. BTW, Alex gave me a good deal on the unit.

[performance]

The gun you have is too big for the i mig 200. You need the 250 or the mts 250S. The 200 cannot provide enough power to run the heavy gauge wire you are wanting to...and give you enough power to spray without creating an overcurrent or duty cycle condition by causing too large of a surge with the thicker diameter wire. (plus duty cycle is rated at 160 amps for mig (35%) and not 200 Amps. The relative position of the wirespeed pot on the panel changes the voltage to the spool gun just as it does to the wire feeder to increase or decrease the feed rate. As you vary the wire speed (amperage) pot on the panel, you are actually varying the voltage to either the wire feeder in the unit or to the spool gun. You have NO wire speed controlability on the spool gun itself on the i mig 200. The two wires in the amphenol connector are the switch wires which provide variable power to the spool gun. (If you turn the wire feed speed up and down the voltage will vary, probably not over 17V though) The "other" two wires actually go to the Euro Quick connect where the MIG gun (our gun) plugs in and is connected to the switch. This means to run our spool guns, you have to dismount the regular gun. The two little spring loaded pins are the MIG gun/Spool gun switch control (on/off). You don't have a large, separate contactor like you do in an old transformer welder. There is a relay soldered directly into a small circuit board with resistors and capacitors on it The actual welding power is provided at the Euro quick connect as well. You can see the relay in this photo off of my original unit on the upper left just below the pots and above the feed motor, though things may be a little different looking now. I took this picture the other day for a customer who was wanting to compare circuits. This is the first i MIG 160/200 brought in. I am still using it regularly, and it runs hotter than many production units but it's all it wants with .035 alum wire with the SM200 gun.

The numbers on the wirefeed speed are fairly close in inches per minute, but can be 15% off depending on wire size. But when you start welding it displays actual amps output. When stick welding the same control does display amps. The arc force control affects both MIG and Stick modes. In stick mode though it controls the "dig" and boosts amps when the welding voltage falls, so amps will not always stay steady when welding if the panel is being watched. This is normal and is what you'd find on any inverter with arc force control and a display. When ever you you strike an arc, it goes from a static preset figure to an actual measurement of amps being put out.

[everlastsupport]

You will need two wires to power the motor. And two wire to turn it on and off by shorting the pins I believe. I can check. Somewhere I documented it and also hooking the pot up to vary the wire speed at the gun.

We use the IMIG 200 on a 5500 watt gen all the time for mobile aluminum MIG welding. Works very well. A lot of broken aluminum along the ocean here.

[performance]

Mike the Miller 30A is a huge gun has it's own gas control built in and he'll be running it direct from the tank and I assume trying to patch together something for a Euro quick connect. And he is going to be using .045 wire I think. I don't think the standard 200 is going to handle it in true axial spray mode to "pound" on. He didn't want the 200 gun of ours because he said it wasn't heavy enough.

[everlastsupport]

Oh, no spray for sure, not enough power. .045, is a bit thick for that imig. We run .030 no problems and C25.

[performance]

This is for aluminum strictly so he must use pure Ar and spray. Can't use a mix with aluminum MIG unless i thas a little He added to it.

[everlastsupport]

Opps. Saw "spray" and assume steel. But the 200 on aluminum, it's a little light on the power.

[Yofish]

The gun you have is too big for the i mig 200. You need the 250 or the mts 250S. The 200 cannot provide enough power to run the heavy gauge wire you are wanting to...and give you enough power to spray without creating an overcurrent or duty cycle condition by causing too large of a surge with the thicker diameter wire. (plus duty cycle is rated at 160 amps for mig (35%) and not 200 Amps. The relative position of the wirespeed pot on the panel changes the voltage to the spool gun just as it does to the wire feeder to increase or decrease the feed rate. As you vary the wire speed (amperage) pot on the panel, you are actually varying the voltage to either the wire feeder in the unit or to the spool gun. You have NO wire speed controlability on the spool gun itself on the i mig 200. The two wires in the amphenol connector are the switch wires which provide variable power to the spool gun. (If you turn the wire feed speed up and down the voltage will vary, probably not over 17V though) The "other" two wires actually go to the Euro Quick connect where the MIG gun (our gun) plugs in and is connected to the switch. This means to run our spool guns, you have to dismount the regular gun. The two little spring loaded pins are the MIG gun/Spool gun switch control (on/off). You don't have a large, separate contactor like you do in an old transformer welder. There is a relay soldered directly into a small circuit board with resistors and capacitors on it The actual welding power is provided at the Euro quick connect as well. You can see the relay in this photo off of my original unit on the upper left just below the pots and above the feed motor, though things may be a little different looking now. I took this picture the other day for a customer who was wanting to compare circuits. This is the first i MIG 160/200 brought in. I am still using it regularly, and it runs hotter than many production units but it's all it wants with .035 alum wire with the SM200 gun.

The numbers on the wirefeed speed are fairly close in inches per minute, but can be 15% off depending on wire size. But when you start welding it displays actual amps output. When stick welding the same control does display amps. The arc force control affects both MIG and Stick modes. In stick mode though it controls the "dig" and boosts amps when the welding voltage falls, so amps will not always stay steady when welding if the panel is being watched. This is normal and is what you'd find on any inverter with arc force control and a display. When ever you you strike an arc, it goes from a static preset figure to an actual measurement of amps being put out.

Mark, thanks for the great, detailed reply. Here is what I am basing my (crazy) decision on: My current main machine is a Hobart Pota-Flex (ever heard of that? Early inverter machine made by Panasonic) which will run .047" wire @ 150A, 21V. I use that setting all the time for .125-.190" material to my satisfaction. I completely and respectfully disagree that the 30A 'is too big'. If this doesn't work with .047" I have no probs dropping down to .035". Hell, I've used .030" plenty of times, point being, gun size has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm doing, unless there is not enough volts for the drive motor. I don't like those little toy guns and I don't want to buy your bigger gun because I already own three 30A's. If this works then I'm prepared to pony up for one of your bigger machines to run the whole taco - a XR suitcase and the 30A gun. I have had Printz, Cobra, Hobart Linear's and other guns. For over 30 years the Miller pistol guns have served me better than any. Again, what I'm trying to do here is have an extremely portable machine that is for that purpose. I have no pretensions for this to replace my main machines. It is very attractive that this machine runs on a 5.5K generator which means all of it will fit easily in a Cessna 172-180. Believe it or not, I've been asked if I could weld aluminum in very remote places.

Here is what I think I'm going to do after I opened up the machine and probed with a VOM: I'm going to install a three function switch on the front of the machine that a) shunts the + power from the internal drive motor after the speed control POT so the 30A motor is controlled by said POT, and b) shunts the 2 control wires from the Euro connector to two free pins on the pin connector. Four of the pins on said connector are taken so I'll remove one now unnecessary wire from the connector to do this. Now I have the trigger on the 30A actuating the weld power and drive motor power controlled by the speed control POT. I've tested it by baring some wires on the 30A and jumping to the box. Thus throwing the switch one way will make the machine work Euro, and the other way will run my spoolgun. I have no problems with the wire speed control being on the box, I don't spend much time adjusting wire speed after I'm set up. Of course, the proof will be in the pudding as to how well the wire speed will be controlled but I see no insurmountable problems. Worse case, I have Miller controller for older style machines that makes 24VDC from 120VAC.

You say that the POT controls the voltage at the pin connector but all I get is a steady 13VDC there. At the internal drive motor I get up to 15+. And you say that those other two wires on the pin connector go to the Euro 'on-off' pins? I'm confused by your description of what the wires going to the pin connector (amphenol type) do.

Thanks again!

PS When is Everlast going to have good documentation for ALL their products? My 200DX came with a charming Chinglish pamphlet and this unit came with NOTHING.

[Yofish]

Mike the Miller 30A is a huge gun has it's own gas control built in and he'll be running it direct from the tank and I assume trying to patch together something for a Euro quick connect. And he is going to be using .045 wire I think. I don't think the standard 200 is going to handle it in true axial spray mode to "pound" on. He didn't want the 200 gun of ours because he said it wasn't heavy enough.

Mark, I thought about trying to get fancy by using the Euro. As you point out, the 30A is in of itself the gas control at the trigger. KISS. This is true even when hooked up to the XR feeder, the gas merely goes in-and-out to the gun. There is no control. Pre and post flow is timed by the human brain sending impulses to the trigger finger. The Miller 30A, INMHO, is the most bomb-proof, toughest gun on the planet. TRUE STORY: In 1988 I was building a small seiner as I was a commercial fisherman. After too many 12 hour days to get it done along with all my other hanging projects I took off with it to give a test after completing a certain part of the whole - not remembering that the welder was on the seine tray - it (the XR feeder and gun) went (saltwater) overboard. My wife watching screamed in time that the power source did not go. 50ft of stretch and 30ft of gun on the bottom. I yarded it up and put it a garbage can of fresh water for a day then opened everything up and dried it for three days. The gun still runs and the feeder gave up last year. Now that, is service.

They ruined the 30A with the new 'Qwik' gas cup and contact tip, but hey, that's an engineers job!

[Yofish]

Spray? Hmmm. We could have quite a discussion about 'spray' but lets say I generally prefer something that may have a little good old short-arc in there. Look at spray arc aluminum under the microscope and one sees aluminum foam. Short arc bigger bubbles and more berries but I'm not sure one is better over the other strength wise. Not arguing here but more to the point of the way I do it and what works for me. The point is 'spray' has no magic for me. One does not repair a canoe with mig by 'spraying', for example.

[performance]

Spray is the only accepted form of aluminum MIG welding (counting pulsed spray)...you get no fusion with short circuit and many inclusions...you won't find a reputable source suggesting otherwise. Short circuit is extremely unreliable...and can crack and even crumble under stress. You might use it to plug a hole sort of like spackle, but fusion will be poor. One does not (should not rather) repair a thin canoe with MIG... This is for TIG. But if one were to repair a canoe, .023 should be used to prevent too much heat input. I am not sure where the information you are citing is coming from, but if it is done correctly it is stronger, and more even. But enough about my thoughts and experience. You can't get more authoritative and unarguable source than this: http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...e-on-Aluminum/.

If you have bubbles in spray, then you have poor gas shielding, or holding it too far off.

[Yofish]

Spray is the only accepted form of aluminum MIG welding (counting pulsed spray)...you get no fusion with short circuit and many inclusions...you won't find a reputable source suggesting otherwise. Short circuit is extremely unreliable...and can crack and even crumble under stress. You might use it to plug a hole sort of like spackle, but fusion will be poor. One does not (should not rather) repair a thin canoe with MIG... This is for TIG. But if one were to repair a canoe, .023 should be used to prevent too much heat input. I am not sure where the information you are citing is coming from, but if it is done correctly it is stronger, and more even. But enough about my thoughts and experience. You can't get more authoritative and unarguable source than this: http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...e-on-Aluminum/.

If you have bubbles in spray, then you have poor gas shielding, or holding it too far off.

Man, I don't know what to say to you other than you haven't been welding very long if you believe whatever Miller tells you! When is the last time you looked at your welds under a 'scope'? And tell me now, where does short arc and spray transition?

As far as repairing a canoe with mig, obviously you've never done it. If you have a machine that can tune, droplet transfer works fine on thin stock in the open with mig. Of course, there are limits. I'm not here to get in peeing contest. I'm just an old fart that's been around since before 'pulse' anything.

"If you have bubbles in spray, then you have poor gas shielding, or holding it too far off". Thanks for the tip. Since starting in 1974, I didn't know that. Imagine.

[performance]

Been welding almost as long as you, (1978) and also have had formal, and informal education and the hands of some pretty good welders. I can send you to dozens of other trusted and respected resources including the AWS about this subject. I've also seen many of an irrigation pipe welded with short circuit aluminum that didn't hold too because some farmer or jackleg welder didn't understand what it was and how poor fusion it was...In fact not long ago, I was called in to test a unit at a LWS. It was a Miller, and the customer was trying to weld some thin wall pipe in short circuit mode...and it was coming apart. I put it into spray and there was no issue from then on. I am not saying you can't blob out some metal in short circuit, sort of like puttying up some caulk or even epoxy, but it isn't structurally sound nor is an accepted practice. I have repaired canoes and john boats and much more. That's why they keep me on here.

I've seen welders do a lot of things that shouldn't be done and claim this or that and someone elses ignorance and try to debunk the tried and tested science of welding by claiming personal success with some non standard practice. It doesn't make it right, correct, recommended, or even safe. I've also seen people drive at 120 miles per hour without wrecking on the interstate and claim they could because they were good drivers...until the law caught up with them eventually. I've seen people welded cast iron steel with a 7018. It'll hold look good and solid until it is handled...I've seen guys weld by squinting their eyes without a helmet until they got cataracts. I've seen welders over pressurize their Acetylene....and I've seen the results where it caught up with the person too. I just had a friend who was welding near arosol cans and did it for years until one little drop of metal flung onto a can just right and sent him to the burn unit with 2 and 3rd degree burns on 60% of his body. To make a long story short, if I was in a canoe ( which I have many an hour in) repaired with a short circuit mig, I wouldn't take it in any white water, and I'd keep my life jacket on.

Mig doesn't just transition from short arc to spray. It goes through globular transfer first. But there is a definite difference, sort of like breaking the sound barrier. When you are in spray, it is a quite, smooth process and vastly different than short circuit. If you are in globular, it is a rough, shaky ride. Exact thresholds for volts and amps will vary according to wire diameter, and wire type, and even inductance setting.

[Yofish]

You win, I don't care you top me. You're smarter, have more experience and are more intelligent. Here is a short arc weld single pass on the outside of corner-to-corner .100" 5052 Notice the lack of penetration and porosity. I give up.



Lets go back to the beginning, which is the most important thing to me. In my entire welding career EVERY company that I've dealt with has been helpful to me in trying to tie together what ever combination of equipment. That does not seem to be the case here. Hey mark, the fact that you even answer with some great info is cool but to say that the 30A won't work because it 'is too big' is, come on, ridiculous. Just help me do what I want to do like Miller, Hobart, Airco, Lincoln and Printz have done for me in the past. Too much to ask? I realize 'I'm voiding the warranty', hell yes! You guys really want to sell welders? To what? saturday afternoon hobbyists and auto garage welders? All the BS about what I know or don't know, or the speculation about what I'm trying to do is a waste of time. There are circuits and things to be aware of to make this work. And bottom line, don't mean squat if you help me or not. I'll figure it out and if I blow her up in the process, so be it!

[zoama]

You win, I don't care you top me. You're smarter, have more experience and are more intelligent. Here is a short arc weld single pass on the outside of corner-to-corner .100" 5052 Notice the lack of penetration and porosity. I give up.



Lets go back to the beginning, which is the most important thing to me. In my entire welding career EVERY company that I've dealt with has been helpful to me in trying to tie together what ever combination of equipment. That does not seem to be the case here. Hey mark, the fact that you even answer with some great info is cool but to say that the 30A won't work because it 'is too big' is, come on, ridiculous. Just help me do what I want to do like Miller, Hobart, Airco, Lincoln and Printz have done for me in the past. Too much to ask? I realize 'I'm voiding the warranty', hell yes! You guys really want to sell welders? To what? saturday afternoon hobbyists and auto garage welders? All the BS about what I know or don't know, or the speculation about what I'm trying to do is a waste of time. There are circuits and things to be aware of to make this work. And bottom line, don't mean squat if you help me or not. I'll figure it out and if I blow her up in the process, so be it!

Please don't give up, as a fellow scientist I'd like to see what you come up with.

A partial quote from Philip Morris Hauser...

Science is the most subversive thing that has ever been devised by man. It is a discipline in which the rules of the game require the undermining of that which already exists, in the sense that new knowledge always necessarily crowds out inferior antecedent knowledge. . . . . This is what the patent system is all about. We reward a man for subverting and undermining that which is already known. . . . . Man has a tendency to resist changing his mind. The history of the physical sciences is replete with episode after episode in which the discoveries of science, subversive as they were because they undermined existing knowledge, had a hard time achieving acceptability and respectability. Galileo was forced to recant; Bruno was burned at the stake; and so forth. An interesting thing about the physical sciences is that they did achieve acceptance.

[Blaster]

I'm not here to get in peeing contest.

Sure you are....

Wanna know how somebody starts a pissin' contest?

They say something like this.

Man, I don't know what to say to you other than you haven't been welding very long if you believe whatever Miller tells you! When is the last time you looked at your welds under a 'scope'?

[zoama]

I'd like to see this thread stay on topic and not break down into members choosing sides of an irrelevant disagreement.
The man came here for answers to specific questions about modifying his equipment.
Maybe he will share some tips and tricks if we don't run him off.

[fdcmiami]

right. why be nice? for science? you're kidding.

I have been running wire through miller guns off of miller equipment since the days of the spoolmatics 1,2, and 3.

I would like to have a little more info about the photo provided. any chance we could get link to the location of the original.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for this guy to rewrite the standards for al wire welding. be nice if you want, rolling over has become an American past time.

me, I still call an jackaxx a jackaxx.

[zoama]

right. why be nice? for science? you're kidding.

I have been running wire through miller guns off of miller equipment since the days of the spoolmatics 1,2, and 3.

I would like to have a little more info about the photo provided. any chance we could get link to the location of the original.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for this guy to rewrite the standards for al wire welding. be nice if you want, rolling over has become an American past time.

me, I still call an jackaxx a jackaxx.

My point is that if everyone dogpiles the man we will never see. I don't have all the answers... I'm here to learn.
He didn't ask how to weld.

[performance]

First, no ill will toward Yofish. He seems to be a Salmon swimming upstream for an inevitable end. He is welcome and should feel free to post....BUT....

My concern is spreading misinformation and giving other customers false impressions about correct procedures and expectations of the units capability. I can't tell you how many times I get a call from a customer who "has read" something about one of our units or alleged capability and then bought it and was displeased when they find out it was bad information from some body talking out of the wrong body part.

If it isn't challenged, then it becomes a likely source of disinformation and opens Everlast up to people with expectations that cannot be satisfied, and even possible legal issues. Again, like FDCMiami said, need a little more info about the picture provided, and I'd like to see bend tests on top of that. I've talked to guys who have welded for 50 years with MIG and never heard of spray welding and weren't sure what it was...or how to recognize it. Experience can be a faulty teacher without the appropriate knowledge base.