6010 on PU205?

[ralphhood3]

Figured I'd post here since my question is stick specific even though I've got a multi-process PU205.

I see the special 6010 port advertised on the power arc 160 and 200. What exactly does that do? Does the fact that my PU205 doesn't have that port mean that I shouldn't be using 6010? Just curious since I just bought some 1/8" 6010 for my PU205 for a friend to stick weld some boxing plates on a truck frame (53 F-100) for me and it seems to sputter randomly and lose the arc. My buddy's a pretty proficient welder especially with stick and on his AC tombstone welder he was getting perfect welds on my truck frame but with the frame back at my house using 6010 on my PU205 he can't pull a consistent bead to save his life, it drops every couple inches. It's definitely not a ground problem (upgraded to the pro Tweco ground clamp on my PU205) or a operator skill problem.

Just curious if the lack of the special 6010 port means I should be using 6011 or some other rod?

Thanks in advance for any feedback on this.

Ralph

[performance]

The 205 is not intended for 6010 rods. You can do it, but the amps must be turned way up to keep it running and a steady hand is needed. The 205 is a basic unit and not equipped for these rods. I have done it successfully, but it takes skill and the arc must be kept short. Also, if you are used to a transformer, then a 6010 welds differently anyway. For the record, AC welders do not handle 6010 well either, as 6010 is NOT and AC rod. What I think is happening is that he is so used to compensating for the foul characteristics on the AC machine, that the inverter is throwing off his techinique. He's probably trying to draw a long arc to keep it running and somewhat stable with the transformer machine, when a shorter arc is required for the basic inverter. Also, to weld DC stick with the PU, you have to reverse your work clamp and stick holder position. If you haven't done that, it would cause additional problems.
To burn 6010 stably you need to have a high voltage output to maintain the arc. Most inverter stickwelders in the 200 amp range like the Miller Maxstar and Lincoln invertec have similar limitations on their small inverters. The lower voltage output that creates the smooth buttery arc to burn a 7018 or 6013 is not favorable to the intense driving arc needed to burn cellulose rods, including the 6011. The unit will burn 6011 okay, but again its not the best choice. The PowerArcs have hot start and adaptive arc force control as well to smooth out the nasty characteristics of a 6010 as well as the high voltage tap (its not just higher voltage that it provides, but changes other things about the volt/amp curve etc that work with the adaptive arc force control and hot start).

[ralphhood3]

Thanks for the feedback. Got some feedback on Weldingweb as well, and it sounds like I need to swap polarity and up the amperage from the 100 I was using to ~125 and see how that works. If it doesn't, I'll have to decide to either stock up on 6013 and find a nice home for all the 6010 I bought or to try and pick up a PowerArc 200.

Ralph

[cmd]

so to hi jack your post a little: my 250ex that is supposed to be coming tomorrow I will be using primarily as a tig unit, but I plan to use it as my portable stick rig sometimes. I burn 7018, 6011, and 6010 (and sometimes SS or Nickel). Should I expect any problem in doing so? I talked to Mike? in tech before I purchased the machine and he implied it would be fine. Also if i want to go from DC+ to DC- all I do is reverse the electrode and ground leads where they go into the welder just the same as any other. I guess I am a little confused with your stick welders having the 6010 port. I may buy one of your stick welders if my old Westinghouse dies, that thing is AC/DC and old as crap but will weld about as pretty as most anything else I've run. I have run some inverter based sticks before (powcon and lincoln gas drive 305) which does indeed run a little different than a transformer.
chris

[performance]

The PowerTig isn't specifically designed for 6010 either. Though it will work okay at higher amps, it doesn't have the voltage.
The arc force does help with it. Everyone's opinion on 6010 performance with the PowerTig 250EX is different, though most people are coming from transformers.

The PowerArc burns a 6010 better than any other welder I have used, particularly inverters. Even guys from our competition have been sneaking a peak at its performance and as reported to me, impressed with its performance. Let me know your thoughts when you get it on its 6010 performance.

[cmd]

I'll let you know. Hopefully I can get a chance tonight to mess around with it.
chris

[ralphhood3]

I got a chance to try my PU205 yesterday with the leads reversed.

With 6010 at 125amps on 3/16" plate I still got pretty marginal results, but I'm guessing that's due in large part to my newbie skill and my friend wasn't available to come try it out as an experienced welder.

I tried some 6013 at 100amps on the same plate and burned through a rod with a consistent and pretty clean bead. Thousand times easier than the 6010.

I wish the 6013 would give enough penetration to use on my 53 Ford Truck Frame because if it did I'd be all set. I need to get my friend to try his skills with the 6010 and the higher amperage to see if he can get good results, otherwise I think I'll have to either haul my frame to his house again for him to 6011 with his tombstone or bite the bullet and buy a powerarc. Buying the powerarc isn't considerably more than the cost of renting a trailer twice (roundtrip) to haul my frame to my friends house.

I would say flipping the leads definitely helped, but I'm not sure just upping the amperage with the 6010 is going to be enough. I think it'll be a fine line between getting a good bead with the 6010 at the higher amperage or just burning straight through the frame rail on the truck.

Appreciate the advice, I'll keep posting updates on what I try and how it works.

[performance]

The 6010 is a poor choice for a truck frame to begin with. I'd go with either a fresh 7018 or 7014. A 6013 if properly done does give plenty of penetration for the application. A 6011 is perfectly okay to use on DC.

[Rugar]

Wouldn't it be easier to move your friends welder to your house instead of moving the truck?

[ralphhood3]

It would be easier to move my friends welder to my house, but that takes trailer rentals justifying a new welder purchase out of my argument :-)

Mark, can you elaborate on why 6010 is a poor choice for a truck frame? I'd be interested in hearing more on that. Also, can I assume 7018 will run just fine on my PU205?

Thanks
Ralph

[performance]

6010 is typically used for root pass welding. Not to say it doesn't have other uses, but the the whipping motion, sometimes called stepping , where you run the rod ahead of the puddle and back in (instead of a weave) that is used for 6010 doesn't lend itself to welding all the way out. Come to think of it, some people do try to weave it and have sticking problems.

[Titan winch]

A 6011 rod is a better choice for the 205 and has a similar properties to the 6010 if i am not mistaken.
Cheers

[cmd]

i am going to post my findings here in a minute in the tig section

[Rugar]

It would be easier to move my friends welder to my house, but that takes trailer rentals justifying a new welder purchase out of my argument :-)

Point taken! (and noted) LOL

[geezer]

It would be easier to move my friends welder to my house, but that takes trailer rentals justifying a new welder purchase out of my argument :-)

Mark, can you elaborate on why 6010 is a poor choice for a truck frame? I'd be interested in hearing more on that. Also, can I assume 7018 will run just fine on my PU205?

Thanks
Ralph

My own limited experience with truck frames is as follows: a lot of truck frames are heat treated for strength, similar to the bed rails under your bed at home, they look like ordinary angle iron but are a pain in the a$$ to weld sometimes.
The 6010/6011 rod is a fast freeze rod has plenty of penetration as you can see or feel the rod go deep into the parent metal, the heat effect is short and localized (it cools rapidly), rapid cooling on a heat teated metal can effect the parent metal. 7018 has a heavier slag covering which retains the heat longer and generally the parent metal gets hotter as a result, it also cools more slowly than 6010/6011 because of the slag covering. Slow cooling reduces the possibility of stress cracking

My personal choice has always been 7018 for such work and if the frame weld is in a critical place I add a fish plate for strength.

I'm sure there are many pro's out there that could elaboate on this subject better than I can and I would like to hear their take on the subject.

[Ray]

Well I don’t claim to be an expert on much of anything, but I have welded (and not welded) many frames.
With heat treated or low alloy high strength steel, It’s not recommended to weld on it at all, I have out of necessity and it’s broken close to the weld every time, even with a fish plate. Best bet is bolt on a plate. Keep in mind, most of what I’ve done was crack repair, flex any metal enough and it will stress crack, so if it cracked the rest of the material has been flexed plenty and it broke where the forces are compounded.
Reading the first post it looks like your boxing in the frame to make it stronger or more ridged, (correct me if I’m wrong) and in 53 I doubt the frame is anything other than mild steel, but it would be worth researching.
If it is Mild steel, I’d probably Mig weld it if it were me, less heat.
Just my 2¢.

Also a note on rods, thinking back the first 2 numbers after the E for electric denote the tensile strength of the rod compound in like thousands of pounds per square inch, mega Pascal’s, nuton pounds or something like that, but E70XX would be stronger than E60XX, the last 2 numbers are to do with the flux type or whether it’s AC or DC, it’s been a long time, perhaps someone with some fresh schoolin can help more with this.
Generally 60(11) works better on dirty metal and will penetrate better but is not as strong (or pretty) as E70(18). Sbeen my esperence.

[ralphhood3]

Thanks Ray. Definitely on the 53 it's not heat treated. The boxing I'm doing is to stiffen the frame for an independant suspsension install. They're pretty common (almost a dime a dozen) on these trucks. The boxing material is 1/4" plate, and the factory frame looks like it's 1/8 at best.

Hadn't really considered MIG welding, but that's primarily because my MIG is the low and SP125 Lincoln and it wouldn't penetrate the 1/4" boxing plate if my life dependend on it. I got it on clearance at Lowes for $200 new so I can't complain, but that ruled it out for frame work on my truck. We decided to use Stick since that was as good for penetration but not as slow as TIG and Stick / TIG were the options we had based on current equipment my friend had or my PU205.

My friend is coming over tomorrow after work to see what he can do with the 6010 at a higher amperage on the PU205, if that doesn't work any better than it did initially (when we had the leads reversed) then we'll either use his tombstone with 6011 or 7018.

If all else fails, I'll call Oleg and order a PowerArc. Not really justified other than a new toy though. :-)

[performance]

Ahh... A Thought, the Power ARCS can be used as a tig on non aluminum applications with a gas valve torch.

[ralphhood3]

Ahh... A Thought, the Power ARCS can be used as a tig on non aluminum applications with a gas valve torch.

I appreciate the support in trying to help me justify a new toy, but I have a PowerUltra205 (which is what started this thread wanting to know if it could weld 6010) and it's got the TIG setup covered. TIG's just a bit slow for the amount of welding I'm doing on my frame compared to Stick.